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If I knew who the hell Shibata was, maybe I'd be more upset. But losing to a guy who has been consistently presented as a big deal in AEW since day (undercard in what world??) doesn't seem like a bad way to go, especially for a New Japan guy making a one off appearance. 

Personally, I like seeing OC as champion. It's something different and I reeeeally hate the concept of "some characters don't need titles". Nah, those are the characters that make the most unique champions.

 

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I barely know who Shibata is either. In fact, this is my first time seeing him since he’d returned. Also, for the record, I didn’t expect or really care if Shibata won the match.

Tell me, besides Adam Cole and Jericho, who has OC beaten that is top talent? I’m looking at his cagematch page and all I’m seeing are jobbers like Tony Nese and Ari Daivari; low-midcarders like Jay Lethal and Ethan Page; and quintessential mid-carders like PAC, Luchasaurus, and Fenix (which were only recently). Are these guys top talent to you? They’re the undercard. These guys aren’t headliners or main-eventers. If you’re top talent, then you gotta beat top talent.

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Shibata is a legit badass, is the thing.

He had an actual MMA career, and his most notable work in NJPW revolved around his ability to headbutt people hard-way and knock them the f out without flinching. He almost ended his career by headbutting the shit out of Okada (bleeding on the brain). And then he made a return to wresting against pretty much all expectations or odds...only to be jobbed out to f'ing Orange Cassidy of all people. His nickname is "The Wrestler"...because he's a purist. He's basically the last mother f'er who should be jobbing to a comedy gimmick.

You could put Shibata in a class with someone like Minoru Suzuki (guys with actual combat skills,  who should not be f'd with).

It would have made more sense for Shibata to compete with a guy like Danielson or Yuta than it ever made to book him against Cassidy. There was nothing to be gained in a match with Cassidy...not even a title match. Which goes back to what PTW was saying about OC being selfish, I guess (whether it's his call or not). - Guy is booked to beat top guys, and it makes no sense. Shibata is a top guy. He came very close to being IWGP champion (prior to injury he was being booked this way). He can hang with world class athletes. - He is a world class athlete.

Especially the fact that this was presented as a "Dream Match" was a huge joke, honestly. Again...something like Danielson vs Shibata or even Yuta vs Shibata might have been  a dream match. This was kind of a nightmare from the start. Everyone knew that Cassidy would get the W, and Shibata gained absolutely nothing from the situation.

 

Edited by Generations
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1 hour ago, PaperThinWalls said:

I barely know who Shibata is either. In fact, this is my first time seeing him since he’d returned. Also, for the record, I didn’t expect or really care if Shibata won the match.

Tell me, besides Adam Cole and Jericho, who has OC beaten that is top talent? I’m looking at his cagematch page and all I’m seeing are jobbers like Tony Nese and Ari Daivari; low-midcarders like Jay Lethal and Ethan Page; and quintessential mid-carders like PAC, Luchasaurus, and Fenix (which were only recently). Are these guys top talent to you? They’re the undercard. These guys aren’t headliners or main-eventers. If you’re top talent, then you gotta beat top talent.

See undercard is weird phrase. On the one hand it means anyone not main event, but it carries such a stink on it and you only ever see it used negatively. I split my rankings more as Main Event > Upper Midcard > Lower Midcard > Enhancement

OC is top of the Upper Midcard to me. A guy who can main event a weekly with no issues and someone who you can have face your World Champ in a perfect "he probably won't win but... shit he might" matchup. This is how he's been presented since day 1 and it works. Crowd reaction alone solidifies that. 

It's not just about who he's beaten, it's also about how he lost to some. This is a guy who has taken Cody & Omega to their limits, two of the undisputedly best of the best AEW has ever had. More recently, he took Ospreay to the limit. Not everything is about wins/losses and Orange is a guy who can consistently look strong even in defeat by stealing the show. The wins against people like Jericho & Cole that you mentioned go to show that he can pull out a win over some of the best too. For a guy who has only now actually won a title, he's been presented exceptionally well. 

I also don't think we can call Jay Lethal a lower midcarder. He's been constantly featured for months on end, feuding with Upper Midcarders like Darby, Wardlow & Joe while challenging for both the TNT & TV belts. Not even a fan of his, but c'mon.

 

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OC just wins too much. He still isn't believable in a role where he is beating top names. Coming close might be fine...but actually winning still feels like an illogical route (and I think it always will). I was VERY opposed to him winning the All Atlantic title from PAC, and I continue to be against him carrying any title at all (aside from maybe a tag or trios title). Honestly...I think AEW has done a terrible job with secondary titles in general (with the exception of the TNT belt). PAC as the inaugural champion made all the sense in the world. OC never needed the win. - And if I'm being honest...it seems like the entire point of the All Atlantic belt SHOULD have been to have people outside the promotion hold it (for exposure). Someone like Penta defending the belt in AAA, or Shibata defending the belt in NJPW would make all the sense in the world. But Cassidy makes ZERO sense. Hell...even an "AEW guy" like Archer who could defend the title in NJPW would make more sense. Countless better options.

Edited by Generations
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1 hour ago, Generations said:

Shibata is a legit badass, is the thing.

He had an actual MMA career, and his most notable work in NJPW revolved around his ability to headbutt people hard-way and knock them the f out without flinching. He almost ended his career by headbutting the shit out of Okada (bleeding on the brain). And then he made a return to wresting against pretty much all expectations or odds...only to be jobbed out to f'ing Orange Cassidy of all people. His nickname is "The Wrestler"...because he's a purist. He's basically the last mother f'er who should be jobbing to a comedy gimmick.

You could put Shibata in a class with someone like Minoru Suzuki (guys with actual combat skills,  who should not be f'd with).

It would have made more sense for Shibata to compete with a guy like Danielson or Yuta than it ever made to book him against Cassidy. There was nothing to be gained in a match with Cassidy...not even a title match. Which goes back to what PTW was saying about OC being selfish, I guess (whether it's his call or not). - Guy is booked to beat top guys, and it makes no sense. Shibata is a top guy. He came very close to being IWGP champion (prior to injury he was being booked this way). He can hang with world class athletes. - He is a world class athlete.

Especially the fact that this was presented as a "Dream Match" was a huge joke, honestly. Again...something like Danielson vs Shibata or even Yuta vs Shibata might have been  a dream match. This was kind of a nightmare from the start. Everyone knew that Cassidy would get the W, and Shibata gained absolutely nothing from the situation

Aight, but this isn't MMA. It's pro wrestling. It's a soap opera featuring a stunt show that mimics a real fight in the most absurd way. Real world clout doesn't really matter when you go out there to play a character. I mean hell, Bobby Fish just tried to pull the "I'm a legit badass" card and that shit didn't fly with anyone. An actor doesn't need to actually murder someone to play a serial killer on TV, know what I mean?

Orange is an absurd, over-the-top character yeah, but he's not presented the way a Santino Marella was, where he occasionally gets lucky. It's consistently noted that Cassidy's entire persona is a massive mind game to keep people from taking him seriously.

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Not implying that Shibata's MMA clout should give him precedence over anyone. (But the fact that he has had absolute BANGERS with people like Okada and Tanahashi certainly does).

Shibata is a main event name in Japan. - He deserves more than a comedy match in the US.

Again...I know who/what Cassidy is and is meant to be. Which is why I suggested that better opponents for Shibata would have been people like Danielson or Yuta.

Edited by Generations
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2 hours ago, Counting Lights said:

See undercard is weird phrase. On the one hand it means anyone not main event, but it carries such a stink on it and you only ever see it used negatively. I split my rankings more as Main Event > Upper Midcard > Lower Midcard > Enhancement

OC is top of the Upper Midcard to me. A guy who can main event a weekly with no issues and someone who you can have face your World Champ in a perfect "he probably won't win but... shit he might" matchup. This is how he's been presented since day 1 and it works. Crowd reaction alone solidifies that. 

It's not just about who he's beaten, it's also about how he lost to some. This is a guy who has taken Cody & Omega to their limits, two of the undisputedly best of the best AEW has ever had. More recently, he took Ospreay to the limit. Not everything is about wins/losses and Orange is a guy who can consistently look strong even in defeat by stealing the show. The wins against people like Jericho & Cole that you mentioned go to show that he can pull out a win over some of the best too. For a guy who has only now actually won a title, he's been presented exceptionally well. 

I also don't think we can call Jay Lethal a lower midcarder. He's been constantly featured for months on end, feuding with Upper Midcarders like Darby, Wardlow & Joe while challenging for both the TNT & TV belts. Not even a fan of his, but c'mon.

 

Undercard is an umbrella term for anyone who is not in the main event scene. That’s how I use it. I don’t necessarily mean only jobbers. So in other words, I ain’t calling OC a jobber. He’s mid as a mid-carder can get in my book.

Upper-midcard to me are guys like Adam Cole, Adam Page, FTR, Wardlow (although he’s slipping with how he’s been booked), and Young Bucks. To get at this level you need to be headlining events and consistently win meaningful matches (among other things), which I don’t see OC doing.

Main-eventers are Mox, Jericho, MJF, and Bryan. Mid-card are guys like Darby, Joe, Claudio, Eddie, and Black. 

His “win” against Cole comes with an asterisk (Unsanctioned match) and his matches with Jericho were two years ago. The matches with Cody and Omega where he lost aren’t recent either and I’m not sure they hold that much value to me either. Unfortunately nowadays it is quite common for guys who are higher up on card to have competitive matches with guys who are lower on the card. Remember when Punk had a 17 min(!) match with Dustin Rhodes? Or his 14 min match with Matt Sydal? Despite being (questionably) competitive matches, the two weren’t elevated and the reason they weren’t was because how they were booked afterwards.

So to use your Cody example. After OC loss to Cody, he went on to win matches against John Silver, Kip Sabian, and was then fed to MJF. Afterwards he had crappy feud with Miro and Kip that many disliked. So did those losses against Cody actually elevate him? I don’t think so. Same with the Omega loss. After that match he ended up feuding with the HFO. Where’s the elevation there? He was feuding with lower-midcard guys at best.

Anyway the point is, losing in competitive matches against stars can potentially elevate a guy, but how they’re booked immediately afterwards is just as crucial, if not more in whether they truly get elevated. Personally, I don’t think a lot of modern wrestlers understand that so they have a bunch of self-indulgent matches that are needlessly competitive and go on far too long. Even a favorite of mine, Punk, is susceptible to that.

As for Jay Lethal, you may be right. Looking at his matches, I think I undersold him a little. Even though he’s been fed to guys like Joe, Wardlow, and Jungle Boy — he did beat Dax and Darby, so that’s worth something.

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On 11/4/2022 at 2:22 AM, Counting Lights said:

I'm not saying it's a groundbreaking monster pop, but for Colt I'd say it was a nice, solid reaction. I genuinely have no opinion on Cabana outside of the Dark Order vignettes, I'm just saying the crowd reacted positively and saying they didn't is incorrect. 

I mean I guess.

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I used to watch Dynamite every week this time last year. I barely check out the highlights on YouTube now. There's been a massive drop off and it doesn't seem to be improving. It's a real shame.

At this point I don't really know what could grab my interest again. It certainly isn't the return of the Young Bucks and Omega.

Danielson as a heel again? Punk (not happening). MJF as champ maybe? Even that I feel will be handled poorly, no fault of MJF mind you.

What else have they got? Who else have they got that they're actually investing in; who is worth actually investing in? (I'm looking at you Garcia and Yuta).

Everything is slapdash, wrestlers disappear for months on end or have pushes dropped after a fortnight. There's no flow to the programme, there's little to no character development. It's all so poorly handled and the fault lies at the feet of Tony Khan.

 

Edited by Kman
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Skipped out on watching the show again. Seems like I didn’t miss much ???

 

And how the *Censored* does Jeff Jarrett have a match on the PPV? Lol. Idk what the *Censored* is going on with this company rn but they need to snap out of it. Because currently, I’m not even watching the shows. 

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Mick Foley gave her promo high praise and people called him out for it. I'm inclined to agree with the people who disagreed with him. It was a very generic promo, and it didn't accomplish much more than burying Baker for no reason. - Like I joked before...if Punk was able to completely lose his shit over that completely tame Hangman promo, then Britt really showed some constraint in being fine with everything that Paige said. It was a much more hostile promo. Unlike the Hangman promo, this one actually felt uncomfortable to watch while it was being delivered.

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