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PaperThinWalls

U.S. Politics Discussion

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14 minutes ago, EJ! said:

yeah damn shame the founding fathers were bootlickers but my point IS the romanticization. All of us are taught about these rebellions in a way that frames the rebellions as “the good guys” and I agree they mostly were. Those rebellions almost always included things burning down just as they are now. 40 or 50+ years from now, you think this whole thing will be reduced to a “crackdown on looters”? Of course not. The looting and the destruction will be afterthoughts because the effects of them were remedied very shortly after. History will remember this moment as the government showing its willingness to end its citizens’ lives in the name of protecting property, property paid for, in some or way or another, by the very citizens they are hurting.

No different than someone trying to loot my house or business and me shooting them.  I have every right to.  The thing is the only people saying "Looting is Okay" are the ones who's property isn't being destroyed or stolen from them.  I wouldn't agree with people stealing my property, so I can't agree with someone stealing someone else's property.  That is the epitome of a hypocrite.

 

Not every rebellion for the independence of the United States was good, even if they were for the same cause.

Edited by Doink!

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4 minutes ago, Doink! said:

No different than someone trying to loot my house or business and me shooting them.  I have every right to.  The thing is the only people saying "Looting is Okay" are the ones who's property isn't being destroyed or stolen from them.  I wouldn't agree with people stealing my property, so I can't agree with someone stealing someone else's property.  That is the epitome of a hypocrite.

 

Not every rebellion for the independence of the United States was good, even if they were for the same cause.

I understand what you’re saying but the fundamental difference is that you are a person. Nobody is coming to your house, and for the most part, they’re not coming for the small business I assume you have and that’s with good reason. You are not the same as a billion dollar corporation. That may be your goal, but that is not what you are as an individual. Unless you are a known racist, there is no beef with you. Knowing nothing about you, I’ll go ahead and assume you’ve been a part of the community that you run your small business in for a long enough time or are at least familiar with the community. You are not these corporations that have turned a profit despite the suffering of the people that have made them the success they are and then turned their back in times of need, you are not displacing people from their homes and gentrifying neighborhoods wide-scale. You are not financially tied to lawmakers who determine the conditions that people live in. You are a person, not a conglomerate. You are human. There’s no need humanizing a machine. 
 

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people should go out and do it, but in a time when unemployment is high as a pandemic runs wild and police still don’t know what the *Censored* they’re doing, I won’t wag my finger at it. If this is a protest against police, why would I be surprised that people go after the things police are REALLY meant to protect? Because hint-hint, it’s not little me and it’s not little you, they have their guns out to protect powers you nor I can reach. That’s why I shrug my shoulders at the looting because as I said before, as a collective, these people know what they’re doing and a guy like you is more susceptible to danger at the hands of the police than these protesters. You can still think it’s hypocritical, but I think this a lot more complex than that.

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Not to mention, if you really fear for your property or business, you should be more wary of white anarchists or rioters who aren't there for the BLM protests. I've seen many videos of white rioters defacing properties or trying to wreck shit only to be stopped by BLM supporters. Besides, you wouldn't have riots or violence if cops weren't getting violent, other than destruction from people not associated with the movement. I mean, if you look at the burning mattress video, you won't see any person of color or Black person there. There was also a graffiti that said "colored person," but do Black people call themselves "colored" now? 

Also, some small business owners have had their stores looted or destroyed, but they still support BLM. I think the protesters also helped clean up the hit stores and raised GoFundMes. 

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1 hour ago, EJ! said:

I understand what you’re saying but the fundamental difference is that you are a person. Nobody is coming to your house, and for the most part, they’re not coming for the small business I assume you have and that’s with good reason. You are not the same as a billion dollar corporation. That may be your goal, but that is not what you are as an individual. Unless you are a known racist, there is no beef with you. Knowing nothing about you, I’ll go ahead and assume you’ve been a part of the community that you run your small business in for a long enough time or are at least familiar with the community. You are not these corporations that have turned a profit despite the suffering of the people that have made them the success they are and then turned their back in times of need, you are not displacing people from their homes and gentrifying neighborhoods wide-scale. You are not financially tied to lawmakers who determine the conditions that people live in. You are a person, not a conglomerate. You are human. There’s no need humanizing a machine. 
 

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people should go out and do it, but in a time when unemployment is high as a pandemic runs wild and police still don’t know what the *Censored* they’re doing, I won’t wag my finger at it. If this is a protest against police, why would I be surprised that people go after the things police are REALLY meant to protect? Because hint-hint, it’s not little me and it’s not little you, they have their guns out to protect powers you nor I can reach. That’s why I shrug my shoulders at the looting because as I said before, as a collective, these people know what they’re doing and a guy like you is more susceptible to danger at the hands of the police than these protesters. You can still think it’s hypocritical, but I think this a lot more complex than that.

Whether they are a billionaire or a small business owner, it is their property regardless.  And let's not overlook the average worker that will have to deal with the consequences of their business being burned down or severely damaged.

 

1 hour ago, M3J said:

Not to mention, if you really fear for your property or business, you should be more wary of white anarchists or rioters who aren't there for the BLM protests. I've seen many videos of white rioters defacing properties or trying to wreck shit only to be stopped by BLM supporters. Besides, you wouldn't have riots or violence if cops weren't getting violent, other than destruction from people not associated with the movement. I mean, if you look at the burning mattress video, you won't see any person of color or Black person there. There was also a graffiti that said "colored person," but do Black people call themselves "colored" now? 

Also, some small business owners have had their stores looted or destroyed, but they still support BLM. I think the protesters also helped clean up the hit stores and raised GoFundMes. 

Come on dude.  Let's not act like the rioting and looting was exclusive to one race.

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My question is, what happens after the protests etc?
Nobody seems to really have a solution or so to what caused those protests and riots.
So how do people see this ending?
Should black people just shut up and accept their fate...because it sure as shit doesnt look like those in charge want to change what lead to the protests in the first place.

I dont know, it brings us back to the core of the problem...black people have tried every peacefull approach, every unique take and creative angle to tackle the problem, make people see it and change...yet it didnt do anything.
George Floyd just like many other black people got killed.
What is left, what can they do to be heard...to simply being treated fair?
They have nothing left except their anger, hopelessness, fear, dissapointment etc...because everything else didnt work.
 

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I think it's come to a point that there needs to be concrete demands, legislature suggestions, or something... Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what do protestors actually want, but this way it will die down and again nothing will change. While on the other hand, I do understand that tere is or may be a fear of stepping up, because if somekind of organisation does, they could easily be branded as "terrorist". That shit that Trump spewed about making "antifa" a terrorist organisation wasn't something that I expect to happen (it's also very unclear if that would be unconstitutional) but it was a very clear warning shot. If a movement tries to step up more, they will spin it the way they want, and a good portion of the country will eat it up. 
I can also imagine that individual people have a fear of stepping up, since some of the leaders from the Ferguson protests have been murdered on their doorstep, or found in torched cars. Some of them are alleged suicides. 

I share the sentiment of EJ! also. I would also like that the looting doesn't happen, and I don't condone it. But sadly it's always a part of the riots, not just in the US. It happened also in Hong Kong, but I didn't see that it was so heavily taken in the account then. In Honk Kong after months and months of protests, 2 people died. In less than a week of Floyd protests, at least 5 are dead. And the examples of ongoing police brutality and tyrannical behaviour were the exact very reason for the protests. These kind of riots also get infiltrated by the police, by groups of people who want to make it look like the looting is the main reason and the main part of the protests. It is a complex thing, always was. Notice how the HK protests were never called "riots", but the narrative of the Floyd protests were quickly taken a hold as: "oh these are not protests, this is just pillaging and looting". 

Also, the international community is very *censored*ing silent about the whole thing. They were given shit how they don't have the balls to stand up to China in the wake of HK protests, but now, only some mild  reactions by some organisations while the police reaction to the protests are much more brutal. 

In the end, all of this was to be expected at some point. It was a powder keg waiting to happen, frustrations, division on all kinds of fronts and opression have been happening for decades. And the worst part is, these protests won't bring to some structural reform. That's not the way this country was set up. There is always some hope that after Trump the country will begin to heal. But I don't see it yet. The cultual and civil degradation has been happening for decades and decades. 

Stay safe.  

Edited by AONO.

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Freedom of speech and land of the free my ass!

This has to stop like right now!

Jane Elliott said it best!

 

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9 hours ago, Doink! said:

Whether they are a billionaire or a small business owner, it is their property regardless.  And let's not overlook the average worker that will have to deal with the consequences of their business being burned down or severely damaged.

 

Come on dude.  Let's not act like the rioting and looting was exclusive to one race.

The average worker who could have their wages paid by the corporations they work for as they wait for it to be rebuilt? Those workers? Nah the damage done so far, other than police stations and vehicles (which will not get a single tear from me) have been of small enough magnitude to send out a simple email to employees telling them to stay home for a few days while they repaint a sign, repair a window, or replace some inventory. This is a bug bite to an insured billion dollar corporation. Don’t take my word for it, take a look at the responses from these corporations like Target. They respond with understanding because a couple thousands dollars worth of repair (maybe even less considering people are actually volunteering to clean up) is much more manageable than millions lost in a boycott from their shoppers for being tone deaf. 

 

Now your other point at M3J I actually agree with you on. It’s not only white people or Antifa. Saying this only gives the police a specific target to hurt and it allows Trump to declare Antifa a terrorist group, even though they aren’t organized or defined, so police can now shoot at anyone and all they have to say was “they were Antifa”. In a protest against police and the police force, it breaks my heart seeing protesters tag team with police and hand people over to them when all that’s doing is giving the police the greenlight to do what they’ve been doing but now to a different group of people and that isn’t the goal here.

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8 hours ago, AONO. said:

Also, the international community is very *censored*ing silent about the whole thing. They were given shit how they don't have the balls to stand up to China in the wake of HK protests, but now, only some mild  reactions by some organisations while the police reaction to the protests are much more brutal. 

They actually aren't, from what I've seen. Different countries have had people show support for BLM, like in Syria. Plus, this is a global problem, not just the US, so that's more reason for other countries like Canada and UK to start a BLM movement there as well.

11 hours ago, Doink! said:

Whether they are a billionaire or a small business owner, it is their property regardless.  And let's not overlook the average worker that will have to deal with the consequences of their business being burned down or severely damaged.

 

Come on dude.  Let's not act like the rioting and looting was exclusive to one race.

It's not, but over 99% of the videos I've seen show primarily white people causing trouble. ANother point was that BLM protesters are peaceful, for the most part, until provoked, and they're not the ones doing most of the destroying.

I do think they've done quite a bit of looting, but mostly to stores with a history of mistreating its employees or Black people, like Gucci. 

10 hours ago, Mani-Man said:

My question is, what happens after the protests etc?
Nobody seems to really have a solution or so to what caused those protests and riots.
So how do people see this ending?
Should black people just shut up and accept their fate...because it sure as shit doesnt look like those in charge want to change what lead to the protests in the first place.

I dont know, it brings us back to the core of the problem...black people have tried every peacefull approach, every unique take and creative angle to tackle the problem, make people see it and change...yet it didnt do anything.
George Floyd just like many other black people got killed.
What is left, what can they do to be heard...to simply being treated fair?
They have nothing left except their anger, hopelessness, fear, dissapointment etc...because everything else didnt work.
 

My guess is that a lot of protesters or rioters mysteriously die or disappear, and nothing changes except for maybe few rules. This may also inspire more people to vote for Trump as he's talking about stopping the rioters and looters, and the media is helping him by painting the protests as riots caused by Black protesters while skipping officers doing horrible things. 

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Maybe 90% of the videos ive seen today the police incite the violent. I might go to a protest in NJ in a few days but the city its in the cops already have a record for being assholes so we will see. 

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look at this. i’m almost angrier at the protesters than the police because police CONTINUE to show exactly who they are and these protesters keep falling for empty gestures. they WANT to hurt you, this is definite proof. the only way to be a good cop is to not be a cop anymore.

Edited by EJ!

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15 minutes ago, Lunchbox said:

Maybe 90% of the videos ive seen today the police incite the violent. I might go to a protest in NJ in a few days but the city its in the cops already have a record for being assholes so we will see. 

Few cities in NJ were said to have cops who joined the protesters, so you're maybe safe. I think people were surprised that Camden or Newark cops showed solidarity with the protesters since as you said, they're known for being assholes. 

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bro what the *Censored* is this? 

 

the fact that there are endless videos of these atrocities and people are trying to justify them all with “broken curfew” or “a couple people were looting”. i’m out of words man we don’t need to be paying these people with our tax dollars. all the “taxation is theft” folks need to get real vocal because i wonder how you would feel if the person that stole from you was also trying to hurt you.

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35 minutes ago, Doink! said:

I don't want to hear another person question why people need AR-15s after this.

Expected this response from you and I definitely agree. The further left I go, the more pro-gun I am. I still think we gotta do something about mass shootings but for shit like this? Yeah, we definitely need weaponry. I gotta admit I never thought I would see it in 3D, high definition like this. I think the main difference between pro-gun lefties and pro-gun right wingers is what each side considers government tyranny. I think what’s happening right now is pretty clearly the definition of that, and you seemingly agree, but I don’t think a lot of the people on your side of the fence do so if things do pop off, I’m concerned with how allegiances will form.

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13 minutes ago, EJ! said:

Expected this response from you and I definitely agree. The further left I go, the more pro-gun I am. I still think we gotta do something about mass shootings but for shit like this? Yeah, we definitely need weaponry. I gotta admit I never thought I would see it in 3D, high definition like this. I think the main difference between pro-gun lefties and pro-gun right wingers is what each side considers government tyranny. I think what’s happening right now is pretty clearly the definition of that, and you seemingly agree, but I don’t think a lot of the people on your side of the fence do so if things do pop off, I’m concerned with how allegiances will form.

It's funny, because you and I agree but for different reasons.  You believe the police are being tyrannical.  I believe that there are some assholes in the police force.  I believe that we need these to protect against the rioters and looters who are being tyrannical.  You believe they are just some assholes out there looting and burning stuff. The Pro-Bernie and Pro-Trump people wanted the same thing in 2016: they wanted to see Washington burn and be built back.  The issue is I could never vote Bernie and you could never vote Trump.  I don't know what the solution is honestly to this conundrum.

 

EDIT: I do have one way that would make it better.  We need more than two legitimate parties.  Imagine if we were in two separate coalitions where we could differ on taxes for example and unite on guns?  I think this would be the best solution.  There's just not a third party option for me currently, unlike on the left where there is the Green Party.

Edited by Doink!

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4 hours ago, Lunchbox said:

Maybe 90% of the videos ive seen today the police incite the violent. I might go to a protest in NJ in a few days but the city its in the cops already have a record for being assholes so we will see. 

Please don't! It is a good thing that you are willing to stand for you and others but please do it rather over social media then putting yourself in physical danger. :(

Things have  become ridicoulos, disgusting and it serously saddens me a lot seeing all this happening to your Country and to everyone that is willing to protest against it.

They don't care if you are totally peaceful anymore, they don't care if you belong to the press, news or whatever, they just attack you and hurt you for no reason at all.

Please be safe!

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8 minutes ago, Doink! said:

It's funny, because you and I agree but for different reasons.  The Pro-Bernie and Pro-Trump people wanted the same thing in 2016: they wanted to see Washington burn and be built back.  The issue is I could never vote Bernie and you could never vote Trump.  I don't know what the solution is honestly to this conundrum.

The only scenario I can think of is if both sides feel like their rights are being infringed upon at the same time and a situation where I think that could happen is if the left starts to load up on arms and in response, since they can’t properly discern who shouldn’t be allowed to have guns, the government bans guns for all citizens which would wake up the right wing. Now it’s right and left vs the government, right out of a movie.

Edited by EJ!

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4 hours ago, Lunchbox said:

This is Bayonne we are talking about lmaoo.

 

 

I dunno much about the city. 

49 minutes ago, Doink! said:

I don't want to hear another person question why people need AR-15s after this.

So, you're okay with protesters shooting cops back? 

5 minutes ago, Doink! said:

It's funny, because you and I agree but for different reasons.  You believe the police are being tyrannical.  I believe that their are some assholes in the police force.  I believe that we need these to protect against the rioters and looters who are being tyrannical.  You believe they are just some assholes out there looting and burning stuff. The Pro-Bernie and Pro-Trump people wanted the same thing in 2016: they wanted to see Washington burn and be built back.  The issue is I could never vote Bernie and you could never vote Trump.  I don't know what the solution is honestly to this conundrum.

How are rioters and looters tyrannical when they have no power? How are they at fault when officers are violent towards protesters and turn them into rioters? The cops are lucky that protesters aren't fighting back or using weapons despite the abuse they're getting. You call me evil or whatever, but to side with the cops and blame protesters for rioting is way worse. There may be some assholes, but they're all bad unless they hold each other accountable and stop each other from being violent, and so far it seems like that's not happening. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Saturi said:

Please don't! It is a good thing that you are willing to stand for you and others but please do it rather over social media then putting yourself in physical danger. :(

Things have  become ridicoulos, disgusting and it serously saddens me a lot seeing all this happening to your Country and to everyone that is willing to protest against it.

They don't care if you are totally peaceful anymore, they don't care if you belong to the press, news or whatever, they just attack you and hurt you for no reason at all.

Please be safe!

Mate, he knows, probably better than you or me. He's willing to risk it to stand up for what he believes in and is willing to risk physical danger. 

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I never said anything about protesters.  I side with the protesters.  I don't side with the rioters and looters.  How are they being tyrannical?  By pillaging and burning people's property.  How do they have power?  They have power in numbers.

 

What is the ultimate equalizer?  A gun.

Edited by Doink!

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As I said, protesters turn into rioters because of cops. They also loot corporations and stores that have been historically racist or anti-Black. In most videos, no protest has turned violent or into a riot as long as cops weren't violent, if they were present. 

power in numbers is not the same as having authority.... 

 

So, you're basically saying it's okay for protesters to use guns against cops? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just surprised if you are as right wingers generally don't like the idea of cops being in danger like that, even when they were protesting the lockdown.

 

Also for anyone that wants to read:

https://gen.medium.com/slavery-and-the-origins-of-the-american-police-state-ec318f5ff05b

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