U.S. Politics Discussion

[Generations]

3 minutes ago, maskedmaniac said:

There won't be a need to "abolish" cops the way things are going I can't see a good reason why anyone would want to become a cop these days. I'm pretty sure it's a job that will be decreasing in numbers going forward.

 

"Defund the police" is not about "abolishing" the police, though. We need police. Most people are not naïve (or outright stupid) enough to say otherwise. We want good ones to do their damn job the way it should be done. People only want to "defund" the police...meaning they stop getting unnecessary access to military grade weapons and ranks in the thousands. If their numbers are smaller, their resources are less, and people don't apply for the job thinking it's carte blanche to get away with murder...that's better for everyone. And that's what "defunding" the police is about.

[maskedmaniac]

Also for the people thinking social workers should be sent in to de-escalate situations rather than cops good luck with that! I'm a social worker and we aint doing that s#!t, we can barely do a home visit unless we get approval from out supervisor and we aren't even properly trained to deal with people, it's mostly case management we do. The police need to have a trained crisis unit that specializes in situations that require de-escalation rather than arrest or fighting crime.

[Generations]

I don't know where I stand on this Bryant girl situation yet. 

On the one hand, yes...it was her who called for help...and she was a younger girl. And she didn't deserve to be shot dead. On the other hand...if the cop pulled-up, and saw her waving a knife and lunging at a group of people, then that's not exactly "oh he shot her for no reason". I know there's a precedent to defend yourself if you are afraid of a group of people. But...did the cop tell her to drop the weapon before he shot? Why didn't she drop the weapon as soon as the officer arrived? If you call the cops to break up a fight, then that's your cue that you can put the knife down. Maybe you need it before he arrives. But when you see him pull up, you can drop it. Again, there's other paths to take than opening fire (4 times, I believe?)...but it would also be easy to see why a dispatched officer would perceive her as a threat to the lives of others. You hate to see these statistics. But, you also need to wonder why people keep acting a fool out there. 

 

Story time...

I was once at the bar, and there was this guy who was really drunk and he got violent for some reason, and took a big knife out of his pocket and stabbed it into the one table outside. The bartender took the knife, called the cops. Cops came. They approached the guy from behind while he was yelling at someone else through the window, and I guess he didn't know they were cops, so he turned around and tried to punch one of them. They all drew their guns on him. It was pretty nuts. Luckily the guy immediately realized he done *censored*ed up, and went quietly after that. But, how quickly could that have gone wrong? I'm just saying...it's not an enviable situation for cops to make these split second decisions. I get that. But on the other hand...man...stop killing these children out here. Damn.

[M3J]

15 hours ago, maskedmaniac said:

There won't be a need to "abolish" cops the way things are going I can't see a good reason why anyone would want to become a cop these days. I'm pretty sure it's a job that will be decreasing in numbers going forward.

There's still plenty of good reason - ability to kill people and get away with it. Unless more cops get convicted for murder, I don't see why white supremacists and people who love to abuse power wouldn't want to be cops. 

15 hours ago, Generations said:

 

"Defund the police" is not about "abolishing" the police, though. We need police. Most people are not naïve (or outright stupid) enough to say otherwise. We want good ones to do their damn job the way it should be done. People only want to "defund" the police...meaning they stop getting unnecessary access to military grade weapons and ranks in the thousands. If their numbers are smaller, their resources are less, and people don't apply for the job thinking it's carte blanche to get away with murder...that's better for everyone. And that's what "defunding" the police is about.

People want police abolished because they don't see any use in police. Police doesn't protect most people, and victims of rape will tell you how little effort the police puts in catching rapists. Not to mention, if victims of abuse, harassment, or stalking come forward, cops don't do much, if anything, until after the fact. 

49 minutes ago, Generations said:

I don't know where I stand on this Bryant girl situation yet. 

On the one hand, yes...it was her who called for help...and she was a younger girl. And she didn't deserve to be shot dead. On the other hand...if the cop pulled-up, and saw her waving a knife and lunging at a group of people, then that's not exactly "oh he shot her for no reason". I know there's a precedent to defend yourself if you are afraid of a group of people. But...did the cop tell her to drop the weapon before he shot? Why didn't she drop the weapon as soon as the officer arrived? If you call the cops to break up a fight, then that's your cue that you can put the knife down. Maybe you need it before he arrives. But when you see him pull up, you can drop it. Again, there's other paths to take than opening fire (4 times, I believe?)...but it would also be easy to see why a dispatched officer would perceive her as a threat to the lives of others. You hate to see these statistics. But, you also need to wonder why people keep acting a fool out there. 

 

Story time...

I was once at the bar, and there was this guy who was really drunk and he got violent for some reason, and took a big knife out of his pocket and stabbed it into the one table outside. The bartender took the knife, called the cops. Cops came. They approached the guy from behind while he was yelling at someone else through the window, and I guess he didn't know they were cops, so he turned around and tried to punch one of them. They all drew their guns on him. It was pretty nuts. Luckily the guy immediately realized he done *censored*ed up, and went quietly after that. But, how quickly could that have gone wrong? I'm just saying...it's not an enviable situation for cops to make these split second decisions. I get that. But on the other hand...man...stop killing these children out here. Damn.

Sources say that he shot her as soon as he got out of the car instead of de-escalating the situation, which he definitely would have done had the girl been white. 

[Generations]

7 minutes ago, M3J said:

 

People want police abolished because they don't see any use in police. Police doesn't protect most people, and victims of rape will tell you how little effort the police puts in catching rapists. Not to mention, if victims of abuse, harassment, or stalking come forward, cops don't do much, if anything, until after the fact. 

 

 

That's just *censored*ing stupid. Like I said...most people aren't dumb enough to believe that. Sure...we all know that on a given day, cops are harassing more people than actually being helpful. BUT...if they ceased to exist, people would be assholes REALLY quick. I refuse to believe that most people want cops abolished. I haven't even heard that term used. "Defund" is what I've been hearing all along. You can't abolish the police...or people would just do whatever the hell they want. I like to think that most people aren't that *censored*ing stupid.

[Lunchbox]

Its really not stupid. I know where all the cops in my town are at most times because they don't patrol. Someone a few weeks ago unloaded a whole ass truck and left a seabox in the middle of the road on a main road. We also have actual video evidence of a cop in my town beating a 17 year old like he was trying to win a UFC belt with another video of the two cops talking about how *censored*ed up the incident was. Defunding would be taking resources from the cops and putting it into stuff that would more easily deescalate situations. Dealing more with mental health aspect of why some crimes are committed. 

[Generations]

Man...I said defunding them was good. 

"Abolishing" them is *censored*ing stupid. Like...who is out here talking about having no cops? Lol. 

 

We need smaller forces with less militaristic resources, and better vetting. Less bad officers hired to begin with, and held accountable if they do do get hired. But we can't just go around saying "we ain't need cops". That's the stupid shit I'm talking about. "Abolish" is not the terminology that people should be on about. Same with that 'ACAB' rhetoric. It's stupid. Y'all are stupid if you believe that. For every awful cop, I've had equally pleasant experiences with good ones. The occupation of "cop" is not the problem. Assholes are the problem. Zero accountability is the problem. The system is the problem. But if you start talking about having no police force at all, then you are 100% promoting anarchy. Y'all are super naive to think people will just be on their best behavior.

[Kman]

Yeah this whole abolishing the police crack is just ridiculous to me. Villifying an entire group based on the horrendous actions of some is exactly what everyone's being championing against isn't it? 

[KingKhan18]

4 hours ago, Generations said:

Man...I said defunding them was good. 

"Abolishing" them is *censored*ing stupid. Like...who is out here talking about having no cops? Lol. 

 

We need smaller forces with less militaristic resources, and better vetting. Less bad officers hired to begin with, and held accountable if they do do get hired. But we can't just go around saying "we ain't need cops". That's the stupid shit I'm talking about. "Abolish" is not the terminology that people should be on about. Same with that 'ACAB' rhetoric. It's stupid. Y'all are stupid if you believe that. For every awful cop, I've had equally pleasant experiences with good ones. The occupation of "cop" is not the problem. Assholes are the problem. Zero accountability is the problem. The system is the problem. But if you start talking about having no police force at all, then you are 100% promoting anarchy. Y'all are super naive to think people will just be on their best behavior.

100%. Police need to exist, but the system needs drastic change so it can work like it's supposed to. ACAB is just senseless generalization based on ( albeit justified ) outrage. 

[maskedmaniac]

I can see it now; police is gone, people are doing drugs freely on the streets. Assault, rape, theft skyrocket because there is no one left to stop this shit. Oh yeah and gun sales will go up like one million percent without cops because more people are gonna have to rely on themselves for protection. It sounds apocalyptic I know, but let's be real, people aren't gonna suddenly be nice and well-behaved if cops just suddenly disappear. Cops exist because of criminals, not the other way around.

[M3J]

12 hours ago, Generations said:

 

That's just *censored*ing stupid. Like I said...most people aren't dumb enough to believe that. Sure...we all know that on a given day, cops are harassing more people than actually being helpful. BUT...if they ceased to exist, people would be assholes REALLY quick. I refuse to believe that most people want cops abolished. I haven't even heard that term used. "Defund" is what I've been hearing all along. You can't abolish the police...or people would just do whatever the hell they want. I like to think that most people aren't that *censored*ing stupid.

No it's not. I can't be assed to explain it, but the people who actually champion this have better explanations and can address any "issues" that you think would exist from cops being abolished. 

You can refuse to believe it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there are people who want cops abolished. I don't think it's most people, but there are more than you think. 

9 hours ago, Lunchbox said:

Its really not stupid. I know where all the cops in my town are at most times because they don't patrol. Someone a few weeks ago unloaded a whole ass truck and left a seabox in the middle of the road on a main road. We also have actual video evidence of a cop in my town beating a 17 year old like he was trying to win a UFC belt with another video of the two cops talking about how *censored*ed up the incident was. Defunding would be taking resources from the cops and putting it into stuff that would more easily deescalate situations. Dealing more with mental health aspect of why some crimes are committed. 

Defunding isn't enough, especially when cops would just be more likely to abuse their power or find other ways to get the money, if the politicians wouldn't secretly re-fund them anyway. Though, defunding would also put money into community resources that people can use.

7 hours ago, Kman said:

Yeah this whole abolishing the police crack is just ridiculous to me. Villifying an entire group based on the horrendous actions of some is exactly what everyone's being championing against isn't it? 

It's not the horrendous actions of "some," it's the majority, if not all. The fact that "good" cops stay quiet and allow abuse of power and police brutality to happen is a problem, and it makes them just as guilty. Not to mention, the amount of cops that were violent towards protesters last summer and even during the trial, continued to kill Black people. Cops have consistently proven that they can't be reformed, and it keeps resulting in Black people dying. 

If it was the case of few bad apples, then there wouldn't have been violence during BLM protests. Cops wouldn't be caught on video using excessive or deadly force on Black people while trying to de-escalate situations with violent white people with weapons. Nor would they protect each other or lie about what happened, like Chauvin dying due to medical issues. 

 

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

[Kman]

3 hours ago, M3J said:

It's not the horrendous actions of "some," it's the majority, if not all. The fact that "good" cops stay quiet and allow abuse of power and police brutality to happen is a problem, and it makes them just as guilty. Not to mention, the amount of cops that were violent towards protesters last summer and even during the trial, continued to kill Black people. Cops have consistently proven that they can't be reformed, and it keeps resulting in Black people dying. 

Again, some ridicolus sweeping generalisations and villifying on your part. It's pretty clear to me where you stand on the matter but to basically call all police  horrendous is just some next level hyperbole. I think everyone agrees that police brutality is a serious issue and that there is some major structural problems aswell. However to lump everyone into the same group (which modern culture has a stupid habit of doing) does a massive diservice to everyone. 

[M3J]

6 hours ago, Kman said:

Again, some ridicolus sweeping generalisations and villifying on your part. It's pretty clear to me where you stand on the matter but to basically call all police  horrendous is just some next level hyperbole. I think everyone agrees that police brutality is a serious issue and that there is some major structural problems aswell. However to lump everyone into the same group (which modern culture has a stupid habit of doing) does a massive diservice to everyone. 

Anyone who's paid attention knows this isn't "sweeping generalization" or whatever, it's based on they behave and have been caught behaving. I even posted a link where a former cop shared his story of what went on, and it seems cops allow shit to slide by. I don't know about UK, but cops in USA were founded to stop runaway slaves, the organization has a racist history to it. 

No it doesn't. Not identifying the problem because "waah generalization" does more harm. There are far too many cops abusing their power and far too many cops protecting others. THere's very little to no accountability, and as long as people defend them or cry about cops being vilified, there won't be any change. Until more of them speak up, hold others accountable/try to stop police brutality, and start policing better, lumped in they shall be into the same group. Better than ignoring the issue just to avoid hurting their feelings. 

[KingKhan18]

You can acknowledge the very real issue of police brutality and systemic injustice without buying into the acab bullshit.  There are 700,000 cops in the USA, I'm sure each and every one of them are murderous pieces of shit who are either racist or just bloodthirsty. That's very plausible. /s

With that being said, I don't buy into the " just a few bad apples " rhetoric either. There are far too many shitty people that are cops, and steps must be taken to ensure that people like Chauvin are not allowed into the police force under any circumstances; and that cops are always held accountable for bad behavior of any sort.

 

[Generations]

Okay, M3J...what is your *censored*ing point? Because, we've been over this...

Of course there are bad cops...and the system enables more and more of them. But, the point is... we still need police.

If the system ceased to exist tonight, your home would be broken into, your shit would be stolen and pawned, your mama and sister raped, etc. It's not like we don't all know that crooked cops are out there getting away with murder. But, you can't burn that whole system down just because of that. Stop being a clown. We need police now, and we will always need them. What you keep talking about is literally anarchy. And anarchy is some middle school horseshit. 

[maskedmaniac]

Remember that old saying on caws, "never remove, only improve". Ditto for cops.

[M3J]

13 hours ago, KingKhan18 said:

You can acknowledge the very real issue of police brutality and systemic injustice without buying into the acab bullshit.  There are 700,000 cops in the USA, I'm sure each and every one of them are murderous pieces of shit who are either racist or just bloodthirsty. That's very plausible. /s

With that being said, I don't buy into the " just a few bad apples " rhetoric either. There are far too many shitty people that are cops, and steps must be taken to ensure that people like Chauvin are not allowed into the police force under any circumstances; and that cops are always held accountable for bad behavior of any sort.

 

There was a cop who killed a Black girl, shot her four times, and his buddy cops yelled "Blue Lives Matter," on the same day as Chauvin's verdict. There's also plenty of videos of cops trying to peacefully de-escalate situations with white people, something they don't bother to do with majority of Black people. 

And if you actually did read my post, I also mentioned cops who are silent being just as guilty. Women have shared stories of being turned away by the superior officer or thrown out whenever they reported being assaulted by cops. Saying there are good cops is meaningless when there are still too many horrible cops that are allowed to run around unchecked and not held accountable. Main problem is no step will be taken to make sure people like Chauvin aren't allowed to join the force (which could have also prevented Tamir Rice's death), and a major part of the issue is that the justice system don't want cops to be held accountable, they're okay with cops killing people, especially Black people. 

 

Again, if the concept of cop abolishing is still too difficult to grasp, then google it. There have been great ideas on what we can do to replace cops, who usually don't do anything for victims of sexual assault. Put the funds towards providing resources to communities, and you'll see crime go down. Get rid of prisons, at least private prisons, and make it easier for former prisoners to make a living. 

11 hours ago, maskedmaniac said:

Remember that old saying on caws, "never remove, only improve". Ditto for cops.

Problem is, they can't be improved, hence why there are people pushing for abolishing cops. How has the previous year not proven this, when cops preferred to get violent against protesters instead of saying they'll stop being violent or using unnecessary force? 

[Generations]

3 hours ago, M3J said:

Problem is, they can't be improved, hence why there are people pushing for abolishing cops. How has the previous year not proven this, when cops preferred to get violent against protesters instead of saying they'll stop being violent or using unnecessary force? 

 

Ah yes...this is a perfectly reasonable stance to take..."they can't be improved". 

You are an extremist in every sense of the term. Your opinions are bad, and you should feel bad.

 

Cops take orders for the most part. A lot of the problems we saw with the protests in 2020 were because of orders. There were things being done during those protests that were obviously coming from the top...like funneling people onto bridges and blocking them at both ends. Those are orders from the top...not just things that the cops chose to do on their own. The system needs to be pulled apart and fixed. There are a lot of broken pieces. But...it's still a system that this nation relies on. YOU CAN'T HAVE NO POLICE. Having a lawless environment where people operate on good will and best intentions is not a realistic scenario. And if you want to talk about things we've "proven in the past year"...I think number one on that list is how unstable a large number of Americans are. You think I even trust my neighbors these days to do the right thing and abide by the law if there are no police to tell them they have to? *Censored* no. People are more batshit crazy than ever before. We have shootings just about every day now. You can't even go grocery shopping with your grandmother without the possibility of someone shooting you dead. We still need cops. Even if a bunch of them are assholes. People aren't going to miraculously hold hands and sing kumbaya if the cops disappear. You're talking about anarchy. Honestly, I don't know why I'm even wasting time responding to you...because, it's not something that is ever going to happen. Reform? Yes. Abolishment? No. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next year. Never. No one is abolishing the police. That's not a thing.

[maskedmaniac]

My brothers a cop. He's a good guy with a family. In 20 years on the job he's never killed anyone, never been on the news for doing something he shouldn't be doing. There's a lot more like him out there, as a social worker I deal with cops a lot and they are on the same page with me trying to help out our community, it's just so easy to watch the news and assume that all cops are bad just because the only times they're on the news now is for something horrible. And for the last damn time, no one's abolishing cops lol. It's a really stupid concept. Let's stop wasting time with this bulls#it and start thinking of actual solutions that actually have a chance in hell of happening.

[M3J]

9 hours ago, Generations said:

 

Ah yes...this is a perfectly reasonable stance to take..."they can't be improved". 

You are an extremist in every sense of the term. Your opinions are bad, and you should feel bad.

 

Cops take orders for the most part. A lot of the problems we saw with the protests in 2020 were because of orders. There were things being done during those protests that were obviously coming from the top...like funneling people onto bridges and blocking them at both ends. Those are orders from the top...not just things that the cops chose to do on their own. The system needs to be pulled apart and fixed. There are a lot of broken pieces. But...it's still a system that this nation relies on. YOU CAN'T HAVE NO POLICE. Having a lawless environment where people operate on good will and best intentions is not a realistic scenario. And if you want to talk about things we've "proven in the past year"...I think number one on that list is how unstable a large number of Americans are. You think I even trust my neighbors these days to do the right thing and abide by the law if there are no police to tell them they have to? *Censored* no. People are more batshit crazy than ever before. We have shootings just about every day now. You can't even go grocery shopping with your grandmother without the possibility of someone shooting you dead. We still need cops. Even if a bunch of them are assholes. People aren't going to miraculously hold hands and sing kumbaya if the cops disappear. You're talking about anarchy. Honestly, I don't know why I'm even wasting time responding to you...because, it's not something that is ever going to happen. Reform? Yes. Abolishment? No. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next year. Never. No one is abolishing the police. That's not a thing.

That is a horseshit excuse. Cops don't need to get violent or run over protesters with cars. They had no reason to push anyone, especially an old person, down on the ground. It's not a system that works for most people.

Why would Black people or people of color trust cops, when cops are likely to shoot them just for breathing? If you're not Black, you'll never understand how Black people feel, and the only reason I have some idea is because of the amount that have spoken up. 

Then don't respond to me? You've clearly shown you know nothing about this topic, just based on the fact that you thought no one actually talked about or wants abolishment. Cops contribute to the unnecessary shootings, and to the problem with society, a great example being how they arrest Black people who carry marijuana, who then gets locked up for decades. You should feel bad for not thinking about how Black people feel or being ignorant about this. 

 

https://abc7chicago.com/karen-garner-video-woman-with-dementia-arrest-body-cam-73-year-old-loveland-police-department/10523073/

4 hours ago, maskedmaniac said:

My brothers a cop. He's a good guy with a family. In 20 years on the job he's never killed anyone, never been on the news for doing something he shouldn't be doing. There's a lot more like him out there, as a social worker I deal with cops a lot and they are on the same page with me trying to help out our community, it's just so easy to watch the news and assume that all cops are bad just because the only times they're on the news now is for something horrible. And for the last damn time, no one's abolishing cops lol. It's a really stupid concept. Let's stop wasting time with this bulls#it and start thinking of actual solutions that actually have a chance in hell of happening.

I've heard customers say a retired cop that they knew was a good man, after he shot and killed his wife and himself. There have also been many cops that have done horrible stuff and never made the news, and Chauvin's case might not have either had a young girl not recorded what happened. 

There are some good cops, but again, silence makes them complicit. 

 

lol no solution is going to happen, cops will continue to kill people and get away with it, and people will be brainwashed enough to think they're in the right, as long as their victims are people of color. If we were going to get solutions, it'd have happened long ago when a cop shot a man runnin away four times in the back and then lied and tried to frame him. Or when a cop was hired despite his past at another department, which should have prevented him from becoming a cop again, and it could have kept a kid alive. 

[Generations]

Again...you are an extremist. I stopped reading that shit after the first line because you started acting like I defended bad cops running over protestors and other heinous things. I never did. 

YOU STILL CAN'T HAVE NO COPS.

[Kman]

M3J calling others brainwashed whilst continuing to spew the same tunnel vision views and also dismissing anyone that doesn't share the same mindset? Funny that.

It's the kind of digital screaming you'd see on twitter and its ridiculous. It accomplishes nothing whilst pushing people further into the extremes. 

[Mani-Man]

11 hours ago, M3J said:

There are some good cops, but again, silence makes them complicit. 

Thats one thing i dont get.
People constantly when stuff like this happens say there are a lot of good cops...but where are they?
Once during the last year or so i saw this one cop making a video about police brutality etc.

I saw more "blue lives matter" cops speak up than "good" cops.
And i know in the police force there is some kind of codex that you stand behind your cop buddies...but *Censored* that.
If a cop *censored*s up, speak up or you are not a good cop.
A good cop knows what is wrong and isnt silent about it no matter what.

Police is not supposed to be a gang that gives each other alibies and protect each other when they did wrong.

That we need police is clear, sadly as society we are not even close to be at a place where Police, prisons etc are unnecessary.
But something has to happen, and i think starting to not give them advanced weapons etc is the way.
They get Shock shields, those god damn rubber bullets they fire point blank at people because they are untrained...that is messed up.

Put money into training, into making those people Authority figures you can trust...instead of arming them like an army whos first reaction is to kill people.
Stop worshipping Authority, be it police, military...they are not saints nor Gods.
They are people that are paid to stand between innocent and guilty and make the right decision.
Teach them the right decision, the value of human life, that POC are not target practice.

[King RyderFan]

I was staying quiet on this, but one point @M3J makes really sticks out to me. “Silence makes good cops complicit.” Do you genuinely belive retaliation and numbers aren’t an issue within the police force? If ypu have 9 bad cops and 1 good one, obviously he isn’t going to be able to do much. 

[Generations]

Using film as a reference can be a dangerous route. But, sometimes movies get things right. 

I know everyone has seen plenty of cop movies where the good cops are trying to do the right thing, and they are being basically blackmailed by the bad ones. I don't think that is too far off from real life. And that's why the system is the problem. You need better vetting. You need to not hire those people in the first place...and if they are  already hired and integrated into the force (which they obviously are), then you need independent groups to root them out and fire them. You need full background checks on things like social media. You need to know what they support, and how they think. You need to be sure that they aren't extremists (which, many of them are). 

Eliminating police and letting crime go unpunished is not a solution to anything. So...let's stop pretending that it is. Accountability is what we need. Also, this isn't just a police problem. We see it more often with police, because they have the tools to carry out literal murder. But, the race issue is a problem in most occupations. It's a white supremacy issue. No one can deny that it is. Blaming the problem on one occupation is not logical. We need sweeping accountability for these people wherever they are. The most pressing one is the police force, because they are out here killing people...but, that accountability needs to be universal.