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OMG Moments


EJ!

OMG Moments  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Fine how they are, could be improved, or could be replaced?

    • Fine how they are
      6
    • Could be improved
      25
    • Could be replaced
      1


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I know these poll results will disappoint me. I mentioned it in the general 2K20 discussion topic already but I think OMG Moments are *censored*ing laaaame. The way they exist takes away from the whole OMG aspect of it. Not only are they just cutscenes, but the way to initiate them is stupid as well. I'm gonna build up my finisher (which is a dated concept in itself but I'll get into that), then I'm gonna awkwardly drag my opponent to the barricade, I'm gonna press the OMG button command then just hold the controller in my hand motionless for 10 seconds while I watch as my player gently walks away to then spear my opponent through the barricade. Now I don't have a finisher anymore and by the time I get my opponent into the ring for the pin, he has enough energy to kick out, essentially wasting my finisher for an animation that lost its luster in the very same game it was introduced in seven years ago. Explain how that is enjoyable?

 

I'm never one to talk a lot about HCTP because I personally think it was overrated beyond this one aspect: there were genuine OMG moments in the game and they didn't require a finisher and the player was in control of the whole thing. Remember the catching finishers in All-Stars? I don't even think the developers meant for that to be in the game but every time it happened it was actually exciting.

 

The true OMG moments are ones that just kinda happen and aren't expected, the events before it somewhat naturally lead up to them. They don't look calculated and forced like they are in the game. Admittedly, it's not as bad as the backstage brawl animations from the SvR days that were like 30 second cutscenes but it's barely an improvement. I saw somebody say OMGs work for the way the gameplay system is and my response is let's change the gameplay system then. I don't like people talking like this is as far as the gameplay can get. OMG moments do nothing more than lazily plug one hole out of the many holes in the gameplay.

 

My solution, in a nutshell, is to add more positions, allow more capabilities from the current positions, add more animations, and work on things like weight and collection detection as well as physics. It's more than doable. Visual Concepts already does this with a game that is MUCH harder to develop than this.

 

Oh yeah one more thing. "Earning" a finisher? Dated concept, just like OMGs. I should be allowed to attempt any move I want whenever I want. The idea that I earn a finisher, but then fail to do it and now have to build that finisher back up is unrealistic and artificially lengthens matches. How many times do guys attempt their finisher throughout a single match? Often. I've seen Orton hit an RKO and win a match within seconds, seen the same plenty of times with other people and their respective finishers as well. All that needs to be done to balance this is make the size of the reversal window dependent on the freshness of the opponent (this can go for all moves really), that way trying a finisher early is a risk/reward scenario where you may lose the advantage but you could do a great deal of damage if you're successful.

 

So say what you voted and why.

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A major improvement I feel is needed is separating OMG tokens from finisher tokens. Because if I'm faced with the decision between using an OMG and hitting my finisher, 9 times out of 10, i'm hitting my finisher.

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They need to be improvement, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it seem in the OP. It's no longer necessary to awkwardly drag your opponent into position, since the game now often transitions the wrestlers into the positions "naturally". Like using the ropes to get back to their feet or a punch resulting in the opponent leaning on the ropes/barricade. What needs improvement is the positioning and the variety of the moves.

 

We should be able to initiate a Suicide Dive when the opponent(s) is standing ouside the ring, for example.

In general I don't mind the idea of OMG moments, because to me they're just common spots in wrestling match. They're not any different from other moves in the game, except for camera angles and the mistake that they can't be broken up. Once VC figures out that issue and can incorporate them properly in Multi-Man matches, they're good.

 

About them using up a Finisher...

I think it's time for the games to change up how Finishers are executed. Because right now every wrestler with a "Momentum" level of 70 or above will easily gain a Finisher in no time. As Brandon X said earlier...why would you want to waste a Finisher on a inferior spot? Well...The change I propose is to change up the name of the F1 counter, to a more general world "Special Move" or something like that. This allows the game to be alot more dynamic it the usage of these stored Special moves. I'm thinking something alongside this:

 

SMx1 = Simple OMG! Spot; Weakest Signatures; PAYBACK LVL.2 Activated;
SMx2 = More complicated OMG! Spot; Multi-Person OMG! Spot; Normal Signatures; Call for Interference; Hulking Up
SMx3 = Finishers; Finisher esq. OMG! Spot; Trio OMG! Spot (Suicide Dive); Resiliency

SMx4 = Match Ending OMG! Spot (Cage Breaker, Ringbreaker, etc.); Triple Powerbomb OMG! Spot;
SMx5 = Uber-Finisher (Only one kick-out attempt); Uber-Finisher Kick-Out OMG! Spot;

 

Obviously you would still be able to do all the stuff of the lower level, once you're above that level. This way using a Special Move for anything else than a Finisher is actually something that isn't that crazy. It would also allow us to have more than 2 Signature moves and not have matches turn into Finisher-spams, in any matches were the wrestlers have a momentum rating above 70.

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A major improvement I feel is needed is separating OMG tokens from finisher tokens. Because if I'm faced with the decision between using an OMG and hitting my finisher, 9 times out of 10, i'm hitting my finisher.

 

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

 

Improve the OMG spots, please & thank you.

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I'm fine with how they are. Plus don't people like to play to do matches rather than win? in that sense taking a finisher doesn't matter and it balances the feature.

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They need to be improvement, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it seem in the OP. It's no longer necessary to awkwardly drag your opponent into position, since the game now often transitions the wrestlers into the positions "naturally". Like using the ropes to get back to their feet or a punch resulting in the opponent leaning on the ropes/barricade. What needs improvement is the positioning and the variety of the moves.

 

We should be able to initiate a Suicide Dive when the opponent(s) is standing outside the ring, for example.

In general I don't mind the idea of OMG moments, because to me they're just common spots in wrestling match. They're not any different from other moves in the game, except for camera angles and the mistake that they can't be broken up. Once VC figures out that issue and can incorporate them properly in Multi-Man matches, they're good.

 

About them using up a Finisher...

I think it's time for the games to change up how Finishers are executed. Because right now every wrestler with a "Momentum" level of 70 or above will easily gain a Finisher in no time. As Brandon X said earlier...why would you want to waste a Finisher on a inferior spot? Well...The change I propose is to change up the name of the F1 counter, to a more general world "Special Move" or something like that. This allows the game to be alot more dynamic it the usage of these stored Special moves. I'm thinking something alongside this:

 

SMx1 = Simple OMG! Spot; Weakest Signatures; PAYBACK LVL.2 Activated;

SMx2 = More complicated OMG! Spot; Multi-Person OMG! Spot; Normal Signatures; Call for Interference; Hulking Up

SMx3 = Finishers; Finisher esq. OMG! Spot; Trio OMG! Spot (Suicide Dive); Resiliency

SMx4 = Match Ending OMG! Spot (Cage Breaker, Ringbreaker, etc.); Triple Powerbomb OMG! Spot;

SMx5 = Uber-Finisher (Only one kick-out attempt); Uber-Finisher Kick-Out OMG! Spot;

 

Obviously you would still be able to do all the stuff of the lower level, once you're above that level. This way using a Special Move for anything else than a Finisher is actually something that isn't that crazy. It would also allow us to have more than 2 Signature moves and not have matches turn into Finisher-spams, in any matches were the wrestlers have a momentum rating above 70.

 

You're talking about position feeding I'm assuming which is another thing you don't have control over and it only happens in the ring, so if I saved up these finishers and I want to do an OMG right now, I have to hope the game puts them in position for it, otherwise I have to awkwardly drag them into position myself. The punches only work within a certain proximity, how many punches will I be allowed to do to get them in position? Also, the majority of the "OMG" moments that are initiated from the ring shouldn't be considered "OMG" moments in the first place. As a matter of fact, the only true "OMG" moments are the environmental ones but even then I'd much rather them be done organically through the other working mechanics of the game and them not be cutscenes that take finishers. I can genuinely think of better ways to implement pretty much every single OMG moment in the game.

 

The best way to get the OMG reaction in the game is to give the player the feeling of "holy shit I can't believe I just did that". When you caught a guy with a finisher in All-Stars, that's the feeling you got because you didn't know if you could do it again. I think it's safe to say that we've seen every possibility with the current gameplay a million times and that's why people get bored. Take a look at other game communities, other sports and multiplayer shooters, I know you've seen the "Top 10 Moments of the Week" videos for games like that on Youtube. THOSE are OMG moments because you probably never have seen them before and it would be hard to recreate them. That's completely possible with WWE but not with how restrictive the gameplay is now. I hope Timschel, may CAWs rest his soul, is still working at VC because it seems like he thought the same as I do, that it's best to do away with too many canned animations and too much structure.

 

As for your finisher idea, as I said I'm personally not in to adding more structural restrictions. I 100% agree with changing the term "finisher" to "special move" but I don't agree with artificially making a match longer just to store up 5 Special Moves to do a certain move. There's not enough to do in a match to make that grind enjoyable and having that many moves locked away behind arbitrary requirements is kinda moving backwards imo. I assume that match has been pretty long if I'm storing up 5 SM and that means I didn't even attempt any of my other special moves this whole time which is pretty unrealistic. That's why I think, for a wrestling game, "earning" a finisher is outdated. It should be about earning the opportunity to do the finisher successfully meaning yes you can try your finisher or special move as soon as the bell rings but you likely won't be successful because your opponent is still fresh and his awareness is still high, so the reversal window would be pretty big, but that window shrinks as he accumulates damage, drains stamina and loses momentum. I'm not saying anything radical, this is more or less how Fire Pro works.

 

And an easy way to let us have more signatures/finishers is to just assign one for each direction like we have for standing strikes and grapples. Triangle or Y + left/right/up/down for signatures, R1 or RB + Triangle or Y + left/right/up/down for Finishers. And I would add Hold Triangle or Y + left/right/up/down for Submission finishers.

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If you're seeing it like that, you have to awkwardly drag your opponent into position for every move that you want to do, if the opponent isn't already in that position. That's not exclusive to OMG Moments. It's for every thing that you specifically want to do and that can never really change, because it is still a game in which you control one person.

 

Earning the opportunity doesn't work either. Because either you make it too restrictive for it to be any fun in the match or it is really lax, resulting in even more Finisher Spammage in matches. It's the biggest issue I have with Fire Pro. Unless you know who the wrestler is, it's really easy to miss them doing the Finisher in the match because it is just another move in a sequence. The amount of Fire Pro matches that end with everyday common moves is really high.

 

And as I said..My issue precisely is that getting a Finisher is way too easy in the current game. Your way makes it even easier, regardless of reversal window, and brings back what Brandon X talked about...Why would you go for any other move if you can just hit your Finisher instead? With your proposal that becomes a very big issue a few minutes into the match, as soon as the health or stamina of a wrestler is down, which happens really fast.

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If you're seeing it like that, you have to awkwardly drag your opponent into position for every move that you want to do, if the opponent isn't already in that position. That's not exclusive to OMG Moments. It's for every thing that you specifically want to do and that can never really change, because it is still a game in which you control one person.

 

Earning the opportunity doesn't work either. Because either you make it too restrictive for it to be any fun in the match or it is really lax, resulting in even more Finisher Spammage in matches. It's the biggest issue I have with Fire Pro. Unless you know who the wrestler is, it's really easy to miss them doing the Finisher in the match because it is just another move in a sequence. The amount of Fire Pro matches that end with everyday common moves is really high.

 

And as I said..My issue precisely is that getting a Finisher is way too easy in the current game. Your way makes it even easier, regardless of reversal window, and brings back what Brandon X talked about...Why would you go for any other move if you can just hit your Finisher instead? With your proposal that becomes a very big issue a few minutes into the match, as soon as the health or stamina of a wrestler is down, which happens really fast.

 

My whole gripe with OMG moments is that the initiation and the canned animations make them look planned which works against the shock and awe purpose of them. But let's get into positioning, because you're right, it's not just OMG moments. Moves with canned animations that are initiated in immersion-breaking ways are problematic. If you don't know what I mean, the Balor Shotgun Dropkick is my favorite example. We should be able to do these things without long canned animations but rather through just the practical mechanics of the game.

 

And I disagree with "it's for every thing that you specifically want to do and that can never really change, because it is still a game in which you control one person." It can and should change. We have position feeding in the game already but what good is it if I don't have control over it to go into my next move? I just have to hope my opponent auto-feeds into the corner for a Helluva Kick, if not I have to go pick him up and either irish whip or drag him to the corner which are both inaccurate set-ups for the move. See my point? If I have control of the match, for fluidity purposes, I should have control over where my opponent crawls or stumbles to next so I can smoothly go into the next spot, basically expanding on how wake-up taunts work. That's how you can more accurately recreate Balor or Zayn's finishing sequence or create your own and that's one way you can create your own "OMG Moments". I should be in control until my opponent can reverse or escape somehow.

 

 

I'll address your finisher concerns issue by issue because I don't think there's anything to fear here:

1. "either you make it too restrictive for it to be any fun in the match or it is really lax, resulting in even more Finisher Spammage in matches." That's a false dichotomy. Why would it have to be one or the other? This is where devs work on balancing like any other dev team for any other game. Also, this is a game with sliders.

2. "it's really easy to miss them doing the Finisher in the match because it is just another move in a sequence. The amount of Fire Pro matches that end with everyday common moves is really high." I'm not really understanding this one. If you're playing the game honestly then you're gonna be trying to reverse moves anyway, so if you miss the reversal then you just miss. Is this related to the reversal limit? I'm being very idealistic but I'm gonna say right now I want to work towards a game without the need for a reversal limit, another thing that isn't as scary as it sounds if reversals are greatly improved and balanced. I'm all about radical change baby.

3. "My issue precisely is that getting a Finisher is way too easy in the current game. Your way makes it even easier" That's the thing, I'm not interested in "getting" a finisher. This is a simulation game and you have to account for as many real life possibilities as you can. I just watched AJ Styles hit Cedric Alexander with a Styles Clash mere minutes into their match. That isn't an unprecedented event, you'll see that enough if you watch enough wrestling. It doesn't make sense for me not to be able to even try to do that in the game. Making it so I can't try my finisher until I reach a certain point and then forcing me to grind to reach that point again if my opponent dodges or blocks my attempt is unrealistic.

4. "regardless of reversal window, and brings back what Brandon X talked about...Why would you go for any other move if you can just hit your Finisher instead?" First of all, you can't disregard the reversal window, that's the main character in this whole thing. To answer your question, simply put, other moves will be easier to perform at any given time than your finisher. Again, balancing is key here. Moves assigned as finishers are hardest to perform, then sigs, then so on and so forth. The whole point is to wear your opponent down to the point where YOU think it's a good time to go for your finisher. Look at it in relation to other sports, going for your finisher too soon, while it should be possible, would be like trying to kick a goal or throw a touchdown pass from the opposite end of the field or trying to shoot a basketball from other end of the court. You can try it, it's just not smart. It's better strategy to work your way closer to the goal so that you have a better chance of scoring, or performing your finisher.

5. "With your proposal that becomes a very big issue a few minutes into the match, as soon as the health or stamina of a wrestler is down, which happens really fast." One more time, balancing. Rather than working around something in the game, why don't we just work to make that part better? Why do we talk like the wrestling game can't be changed to put more wrestling things in it? Expand on match pace settings to determine how fast or slow stamina and health go down and let momentum be its own thing. You have a finite amount of health and stamina but momentum is a feeling or energy that can't be quantified by percentages like in the game, and it goes back and forth. Two opponents can't build momentum at the same time. I say all that to say that if you have more momentum, stamina and health than your opponent, you have a pretty good shot at your finisher because your opponent's reversal window will be small in the same way that it's small when trying to kick out of a pin, and that goes for every move, not just finishers but again, some moves easier than others.

 

If you take a step back, it wouldn't look much different from how it already is.

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Because I just don't think it's a realistic thing that you want. Neither in theory nor in practice. You want the game to work as both...A sports game aswell as a simulation game, which is two completely different play-styles. Ofcourse moves with generally trigger a animation. That's all that a game can do. Making it anymore user-based than it currently is, makes it an overcomlicated mess, in which every single motion is controlled manually, just so that the game doesn't take the control out of the player's hand.

 

Your comparison with other games falls flat due to the very different nature that pro wrestling has to other sports game. Wrestling itself is a simulation. When you watch pro wrestling long enough you will see the same moves and sequences over and over again, almost as if they're automated. No matter how they're set up...in the end a Triangle Moonsault will always look like a Triangle Moonsault. You can't change that. Trying to split up the move in a way where it's not a single animation caused by a OMG moment, turns the game from a Simulation of a Simulation, to the Failed attempt of an Simulation. We all can recount the amount of times that we tried to set a spot up in the game, only for it to either not go the way we wanted or expected, or the opponent moving out of the way or reversing the move. It's frutstrating, Sure. But the alternative would be the game completely working in the player's favor, for all moves we might want to do. That completely takes the actual control out of our hands and makes the AI script the matches for us.

 

What you're proposing is trying to create a system in which the player can control the move-feeding for the opponent beyond the Wake-Up Taunt. This means that AI would need to know wether or not you want to go for the Helluva Kick in the corner, or the running Yoshi Tonic against a standing opponent. Or maybe you want to set up a Springboard move instead. There is no way for the AI to know and giving us buttons for each possible position, makes the game far to complicated in its controls. And that whole thing isn't even taking in account multi-man or Multiplayer matches.

 

OMG Moments are the necessary compromise between a complete AI vs. AI simulation and a player controlled game.

 

And don't get me wrong. There are tons of moves that could be done better in the game (including the Bálor Shotgun Dropkick you mentioned) and I definitely feel the new engine needs to incorporate rag-doll physics into the game, once there actually is one. But that is an issue with seperated moves. Not the way moves are done in general. Mostly that only applies to strikes and kicks. Even then...we already get a look at how it should work better in 2k19. When you perform a running strike to an opponent standing near the corner, he will usually crash into the turnbuckle and either drop into a seated position or bounce back. That's how the Shotgun Dropkick should work. But that is not how most OMG moments COULD work, which rely on the opponent not moving away, while we attempt to do a Suicide Dive. That doesn't happen IRL either, but would inevitably happen if OMG moments stopped being 'cutscenes'. It would get frustrating really fast in, again, multi-man and multiplayer matches.

 

You said it wouldn't be much different to how it already is, but the way you're arguing seems more like you're against the general way moves work in the game and not just certain animations

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Because I just don't think it's a realistic thing that you want. Neither in theory nor in practice. You want the game to work as both...A sports game aswell as a simulation game, which is two completely different play-styles. Ofcourse moves with generally trigger a animation. That's all that a game can do. Making it anymore user-based than it currently is, makes it an overcomlicated mess, in which every single motion is controlled manually, just so that the game doesn't take the control out of the player's hand.

 

Your comparison with other games falls flat due to the very different nature that pro wrestling has to other sports game. Wrestling itself is a simulation. When you watch pro wrestling long enough you will see the same moves and sequences over and over again, almost as if they're automated. No matter how they're set up...in the end a Triangle Moonsault will always look like a Triangle Moonsault. You can't change that. Trying to split up the move in a way where it's not a single animation caused by a OMG moment, turns the game from a Simulation of a Simulation, to the Failed attempt of an Simulation. We all can recount the amount of times that we tried to set a spot up in the game, only for it to either not go the way we wanted or expected, or the opponent moving out of the way or reversing the move. It's frutstrating, Sure. But the alternative would be the game completely working in the player's favor, for all moves we might want to do. That completely takes the actual control out of our hands and makes the AI script the matches for us.

 

What you're proposing is trying to create a system in which the player can control the move-feeding for the opponent beyond the Wake-Up Taunt. This means that AI would need to know wether or not you want to go for the Helluva Kick in the corner, or the running Yoshi Tonic against a standing opponent. Or maybe you want to set up a Springboard move instead. There is no way for the AI to know and giving us buttons for each possible position, makes the game far to complicated in its controls. And that whole thing isn't even taking in account multi-man or Multiplayer matches.

 

OMG Moments are the necessary compromise between a complete AI vs. AI simulation and a player controlled game.

 

And don't get me wrong. There are tons of moves that could be done better in the game (including the Bálor Shotgun Dropkick you mentioned) and I definitely feel the new engine needs to incorporate rag-doll physics into the game, once there actually is one. But that is an issue with seperated moves. Not the way moves are done in general. Mostly that only applies to strikes and kicks. Even then...we already get a look at how it should work better in 2k19. When you perform a running strike to an opponent standing near the corner, he will usually crash into the turnbuckle and either drop into a seated position or bounce back. That's how the Shotgun Dropkick should work. But that is not how most OMG moments COULD work, which rely on the opponent not moving away, while we attempt to do a Suicide Dive. That doesn't happen IRL either, but would inevitably happen if OMG moments stopped being 'cutscenes'. It would get frustrating really fast in, again, multi-man and multiplayer matches.

 

You said it wouldn't be much different to how it already is, but the way you're arguing seems more like you're against the general way moves work in the game and not just certain animations

 

I'm pretty sure 2K uses the term sports-sim to describe the game, as in making a game that is true to the sport is based off of, that's all I mean. I'm not sure what you think I meant by simulation but I never said there shouldn't be animations. If you think I mean that I want every single little movement to be controllable, like if I initiate a suplex I want to manually grab my opponent's arm, manually throw it over my head, then manually lift my opponent and then manually drop to the mat, then that's not at all what I meant. I thought the Balor Dropkick example was more indicative of what I meant, but I'll be more specific. Let's take the Barricade Break animation. Instead of the long canned animation, what I would do is allow the player to do a running strike to their opponent waiting in the barricade corner and if they've built up enough momentum and their opponent is very low on health, they'll go through the barricade. That's what I mean by allowing players to do it all themselves. Another example, the Suicide OMG moves. I don't know about you but I've mastered the ability to smoothly run the ropes and do an outside dive, making the rope grapple OMG versions very useless. I want them to take the diving part of those long animations and just put them in the Outside Dive section.

 

You said my comparison to other sports games falls flat because of a reason I wasn't using the comparison for. I used that comparison to say why we should be able to do our finisher whenever we want. To be honest, this whole paragraph kinda argues against something I never said. I'm not saying the opponent shouldn't be able to reverse or resist. As far as the Triangle Moonsault, all I want to say there is that instead of it being a corner grapple or OMG moment, it should be a regular springboard if we're talking about Nese's version and for Ibushi's version, I've been asking for Triangle Outside Dive capabilities for years. It doesn't need to be an OMG moment or long canned animation, the game just needs to know that our opponent is down or standing outside, which it already does (considering we can't do outside dives when our opponent is in the ring), and allow us to perform those moves like regular springboards.

 

As far as controlling feeding for our opponent, yeah I've put way too much thought into it to agree with you there. I've even come up with a practical control scheme a while ago, so there would be no AI guessing, you can send your opponent exactly where you want. Here it is:

-We'll say L1 is our position feeding button, once held, the controller layout changes significantly and instead of just pressing up on the D-pad to bring someone onto their feet, you're gonna hold it until he gets onto his feet. Just tapping it will have him get up on all fours, another tap will have him on both knees, another tap will have him on one knee, then on both feet but bent over and then finally completely upright and groggy. If the opponent is on his back, he'll start this process by sitting up first before turning over on all fours. If you hold UP but let go before he's upright, he's gonna stop in the position he was last in. So UP without L1 is how you do all this WITH the wake-up taunt.

-To keep the opponent upright or in the same position (such as the corner) after certain (strong)strikes, you're gonna hold L1 while striking. So for example, you can have a superkick leave your opponent groggy instead of knocking him down or a running clothesline to the corner could have your opponent stay in the corner instead of falling out like usual.
-Now for sending opponents to different positions in and around the ring: L1+ Right Stick in the direction of the position. Depending on whether the opponent is crawling or stumbling, he'll feed to the position in the way that's closest to his level. So if I send him crawling to the corner, he'll rest on the bottom rope when he gets there. From there I can have him make his way up to his feet in the corner by continuing to push the stick in that direction. Adding R1 would have him get up and face the turnbuckle, same applies for getting the opponent to face away from you when getting up.
-L1+holding Right Stick toward ropes would have him crawl to the bottom rope (in position for the drive-by kick, no need for that OMG), then up to the middle rope and then finally leaning against the ropes.
-L1+R1+holding RightStick toward the ropes would send him rolling onto the the apron. From there you can have him make his way to his feet (without R1) or roll off to the outside (with R1).
-You can have the opponent stumble out of a position like the corner or the ropes with DpadUP (you'll do it with a wake-up taunt without L1, perfect for a Balor Dropkick).
-If you hold L1 while Irish Whipping, instead of the Irish Whip, you'll do an assigned move that sends the opponent stumbling in that position. So instead of an irish whip or a drag, I can do a nice strike that sends my opponent stumbling towards the corner and I wouldn't have to be close by it. It would look similar to crowd fighting.
-You can feed your opponent to the adjacent ropes from the corner (and vice versa) with L1+Right Stick. If you press it while close to your opponent, you'll do an assigned strike that sends them stumbling to the next position.
-If they allow for more assignable move positions on the outside like Against the Corner Barricade, Against the Steps, Against the Apron, Against the Steel Post, and Against the Announce Table, then these controls would work the same way when you're outside.

-Basically when an opponent is groggy you can do whatever. So you can also have them drop down with L1+DpadDOWN. From a standing groggy state, your opponent will drop down to the last position. If pressed while close to the opponent, assigned strikes will be performed to drop the opponent to each position.

 

 

I don't think that's complicated, at worst it's something that someone should have to practice but that should be the case anyway. If you find any holes in this control scheme you let me know but you'll find these button commands currently have no other function in the game. I don't understand the concern with multi-man matches, whoever initiates the position feeding first gets locked in with that opponent and the only way it gets interrupted is by force. If by multiplayer you mean playing against other humans, that's even more of a non issue. They can ring escape if they're close and quick enough, they can instant recovery, or they can simply reverse my next move. If I'm in control of the match then let me be in control. Matches would be 1000x more true to life and fluid.

 

There is 0 need for OMG Moments. Throw any existing OMG Moment at me and I can give you a better way to implement it in the game. I'm telling you I've given these things an unhealthy amount of thought. When I see people say "Braun's Shoulder Tackle Train should be an OMG moment" it irks me because that is the most bland and unimaginative way to have it in the game. We don't need any more and we don't need the ones we have.

 

Where we can agree is the ragdoll physics part, though I wouldn't use the term "ragdoll" because that doesn't accurately describe what should happen when a trained wrestler takes bumps, but I've been definitely asking for a smart body physics system to be put in since 2007 after I found out about the Euphoria engine (the GTA physics engine, though that particular physics engine probably wouldn't look great in a wrestling game). Your Balor Dropkick idea is towards what I had in mind so you get what I mean there, but again we don't need OMG cutscenes for Suicide Dives or anything else. Maybe you and I just play differently because when I knock an opponent to the outside and I want to do an outside dive, I simply do a wake-up taunt. He gets up to his feet in a groggy state and I have all the time I want to run the ropes and dive onto him without him walking out of the way, no OMG needed. It's not a glitch or an exploit, it's just me using the other mechanics of the game. It's much more satisfying because I did it all myself and didn't need a finisher or to waste a rope grapple slot (except for things like the Samoa Joe suicide dive and the Neville corkscrew that don't have a regular springboard version).

 

When I said it wouldn't look much different than it already it is, I was talking about my Finisher idea.

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As the list of OMG stuff is smaller than the multitudes of other great moves in the game, I feel like the announcers should be going apeshit with commentary specific to what move you just did. Aside from the occasional "holy bleep" or "this is awesome" chant for announce table spots and such, there's nothing all that different about the crowd. They should be going apeshit too, one way or the other, whether it be OMG, taunts, or entrances. Moves are really the only thing that sways a crowd's reaction in any way and that's just not the way it's supposed to be. I don't like the fullscreen replay after an OMG or a finisher because it is my personal feeling that it slows gameplay down and is almost counter-productive, as it's meant to make the moment seem grander and yet it causes the moments to feel anti-climactic to me, especially at the end.

 

That may speak to the replay effect(s) just not being very good, but I've turned them off for years. Let's get to the action and worry about replays until after the match is done, unless you wanna throw a small square on the lower corner of my screen like they do on television. I also feel OMG's should have a special effect, like my favorite may always be the one from I think SvR2010, where the screen got a little darker and they emphasized flash bulbs in the background. As this category is limited, I think some sort of effect prior to impact would make the feature shine that much more. Definitely shouldn't get rid of the OMG's because I have plenty of new ideas. You know me, if something was old and lame I'd be one of the first to talk about moving on from it and stepping into the future. Crowds should even pop when you hit outside dives, man. Still waiting on diving OMG's where you can wipe out 2 or 3 people at the same time, in or out of the ring. I'd be surprised if OMG's got any special love for 2K20, but there's always been potential.....lack of crowd/announcer response (and then a replay) kinda kills the moment and it's specialness. I don't know why I felt compelled to give my take, since most everyone said it was good but just needed improved.

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Definitely shouldn't get rid of the OMG's because I have plenty of new ideas. You know me, if something was old and lame I'd be one of the first to talk about moving on from it and stepping into the future. Crowds should even pop when you hit outside dives, man. Still waiting on diving OMG's where you can wipe out 2 or 3 people at the same time, in or out of the ring.

 

Name your ideas and I bet I can think of a better way to implement them than making them OMG moments, as long as their not too outlandish.

 

For example, I've had an idea for diving onto multiple opponents for years now.

 

My idea for this was to have a visible zone, maybe the exact zone from the diving sections of Create a Moveset. This zone would look a bit more faint when in the match but still visible, it also would be a lot bigger. Anyone caught in the zone when someone is about to dive is in danger of getting hit. If a person is perched on any higher surface and uses the wake up button, everyone in the zone will get up groggy. Everyone in the zone who reverses on time escapes the zone and doesn't get hit. So the diver can hit everyone but it's also possible to hit nobody. High risk.

 

 

Or how about Tower of Doom spots

 

 

This will not be possible with an OMG moment, and if it is, it won't be satisfying I'm certain. I wanna preface this idea by introducing something that should have been in game for years now: Top rope battles. How many times have you seen someone be able to just smoothly place someone on the top rope for a superplex with no resistance? Very few. The same way we have battles at the top of the ladder should be the same way we have battles on the top turnbuckle, the winner gets control of the situation. So if I'm in danger of suffering a top rope grapple but I win the fight and my opponent is groggy, I have an arsenal of moves available to me here. I could push him off (R2), strike him off (Square), do my own top rope grapple (X), push him into the tree of woe or nudge him outside or drop to the ring through his legs (L1), or do a finisher that makes sense (Triangle). On the other side, if I win the battle, I do the move I planned to do.

 

Now that that's in place, let's get back to the Tower of Doom. A 6 Man Match. Two people fight on the top rope. You can come initiate a potential three man Tower by going up to the battle and grappling. When you do this, a meter similar to the pin meter comes up. You get one chance to hit the zone. If you hit it, you take no damage as you slam both competitors down. If you miss, you climb up and join the tower. There's a window of time for a fourth, fifth and sixth person to repeat that process, if the window of time runs out before the next person joins, then the tower falls as is. Momentum and stamina drain are dished out proportionately. The person atop the Tower will take the most damage unless he can R2 his way out of it on time.

 

 

These are just a couple of the things I sent in the Feedback Project. So bring the noise, whatever you got I can probably think of a better way. We don't need these glorified cutscenes I promise.

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The biggest problem I have is that it seems 2K doesn't really know what to do. At first, they used for big spots like Cesaro's Superplex ( which is its own apron move now ) and then, they used it for Suicide Dives ( which they stopped doing for just simple moves ) so I think the priority would be to decide what are OMG Moments in the first place, what are the things that truly can't be done through gameplay

 

If I had to do it, I would put a focus on things like WWE 2K14 where Undertaker could counter a pin into the Hell's Gate. I think that kind of counter from the ground could fit the idea.

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I find it curious that so many people would vote for "fine as they are"...

 

Isn't it kind of obvious that "improving" something is always a good thing? Like...I get that sometimes you change something that isn't broken, and you break it by doing so. But, the poll doesn't say "change it"...it says "improve it". Improvement is always good. Lol.

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On the subject of what sort of OMG moment I could possibly have in mind that undeniably would have to be an OMG moment, the main one that sticks out in my head from my list is Summerslam….Seth Rollins climbing the top rope, stepping out to the ring post and performing a dive from there onto Brock on the announce table. No, I absolutely don't think it should be a new ability for everyone to be able to step onto the ring post and perform dives, nor should it be a regular move. If you wanna give that OMG to other people, that's another story. Do you, y'know? I'd give that to the likes of Mayu Iwatani in a heartbeat because it suits her.

 

On the subject of the Feedback Project, I admit I've never participated in that. I guess I was always most comfortable and familiar with posting on here, so I don't know if our ideas are even being heard or looked at as much as people on Smacktalks or the 2K forums. Seems like the same little clique of people still hang here, other than when a game is about to come out. lol. I know people of consequence lurk on here because the comments are less so there's less BS to weed through, but should I post my next list on the 2K forums as well or does it really not matter if I just post here instead? Call it age, call it aloofness, whatever....it's gonna be my last list, there's probably years and years worth of ideas and I just wanna know that it stuck where (or in the heads of those whom) it needed to stick.

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On the subject of what sort of OMG moment I could possibly have in mind that undeniably would have to be an OMG moment, the main one that sticks out in my head from my list is Summerslam….Seth Rollins climbing the top rope, stepping out to the ring post and performing a dive from there onto Brock on the announce table. No, I absolutely don't think it should be a new ability for everyone to be able to step onto the ring post and perform dives, nor should it be a regular move. If you wanna give that OMG to other people, that's another story. Do you, y'know? I'd give that to the likes of Mayu Iwatani in a heartbeat because it suits her.

 

On the subject of the Feedback Project, I admit I've never participated in that. I guess I was always most comfortable and familiar with posting on here, so I don't know if our ideas are even being heard or looked at as much as people on Smacktalks or the 2K forums. Seems like the same little clique of people still hang here, other than when a game is about to come out. lol. I know people of consequence lurk on here because the comments are less so there's less BS to weed through, but should I post my next list on the 2K forums as well or does it really not matter if I just post here instead? Call it age, call it aloofness, whatever....it's gonna be my last list, there's probably years and years worth of ideas and I just wanna know that it stuck where (or in the heads of those whom) it needed to stick.

 

Aw man you are KILLING me. You would rather THAT be a cutscene? That might be the easiest thing you could've brought to me. Two reasons why this would 100% be better as an assignable skill (or Badge, which I hope they adopt from NBA) than an OMG cutscene:

1. You gave the Summerslam example, I'll give you Extreme Rules. Seth did that same thing, except it wasn't through the announce table, no it was through a wooden table on the other side of the ring. How do you account for that with an OMG cutscene? Or what about when Cesaro used to do it as a normal regular move?

2. What you're proposing looks almost identical to climbing to the tippy top of a ladder which is already in the game, like you could probably even transfer the animation over with just a few tweaks. So if THAT isn't an OMG but rather an assignable skill to prevent everybody from being able to do it, why should simply stepping out onto the ring post have to be an OMG, a long canned, and pretty much irreversible OMG cutscene? Side note: I think the announce table restrictions are bogus. OMG Moments are not worth them taking announce table freedom away.

 

Gimme another one.

 

As far as the Feedback Project, yeah I can't say for sure if they really take the time to read everybody's ideas but just like you, I got a whole 8 page doc of ideas and for my own sanity, I have to believe they do read people's ideas. I can't let myself think I care this much for nothing. I will say it's easier to parse through ideas in the Feedback Project because they have it separated by category on the 2K Forums. So the topics look like "Feedback Project: Creation Suite", "Feedback Project: MyCareer", "Feedback Project: Gameplay", etc. The gameplay topic is usually never as active because for some reason, you and I are of the very few that give much of a damn about that part of the series.

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I just think the OMG's should be stylized, and wanting the crowd and announcer energy to match such occasions is nothing new. There isn't much difference between that and a stylized combination cutscene in a Mortal Kombat or a Street Fighter-kinda game. Hell, I was thinking of a Payback that allows you an extended, uninterruptable hit combo with a one-button initiation. One button (or R1+L1+triangle) and you perform an entire combo of up to 8 moves onto a staggering opponent, and end with either a strong strike or a submission. It would open up the opportunity for everyone with this Payback to have unique combos and watch them play out like a bunch of unique-looking animations instead of the regular way of button-tapping and getting reversed before you're done, more often than not. Plus, the purpose of paybacks is to get you a leg up if you're getting your ass kicked, so a proper hit combo could be real handy to players. Throw a stylized camera effect on that and it's money. I feel there are a number of other aspects of the game that slow down or take the oomph out of the gameplay from bell to bell, and I just don't see OMG moments as one of them. I'm not really disagreeing with your points because they're well thought out and valid. It just...ain't really broke...so no need to fix it or get rid of it...just upgrade it whenever they get the chance.

 

And that 2K forum setup doesn't really work for me. I need to just type out explanations of everything on my list in the order that it's on there...it would suck trying to compartmentalize everything like that. Can't lie...sometimes it takes more than one or 2 days to type out one of those lists and explain myself. I was fun at parties once. lol

 

Edit- wanted to add that r1+l1+strike could be an extended strike combo similar to the system we already had but ending with a strong strike...and r1+l1+grapple could be a new/old aspect of chaining newly captured/animated grapple moves together ala All Stars and ending with a strong grapple or submission.

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I just think the OMG's should be stylized, and wanting the crowd and announcer energy to match such occasions is nothing new. There isn't much difference between that and a stylized combination cutscene in a Mortal Kombat or a Street Fighter-kinda game. Hell, I was thinking of a Payback that allows you an extended, uninterruptable hit combo with a one-button initiation. One button (or R1+L1+triangle) and you perform an entire combo of up to 8 moves onto a staggering opponent, and end with either a strong strike or a submission. It would open up the opportunity for everyone with this Payback to have unique combos and watch them play out like a bunch of unique-looking animations instead of the regular way of button-tapping and getting reversed before you're done, more often than not. Plus, the purpose of paybacks is to get you a leg up if you're getting your ass kicked, so a proper hit combo could be real handy to players. Throw a stylized camera effect on that and it's money. I feel there are a number of other aspects of the game that slow down or take the oomph out of the gameplay from bell to bell, and I just don't see OMG moments as one of them. I'm not really disagreeing with your points because they're well thought out and valid. It just...ain't really broke...so no need to fix it or get rid of it...just upgrade it whenever they get the chance.

 

And that 2K forum setup doesn't really work for me. I need to just type out explanations of everything on my list in the order that it's on there...it would suck trying to compartmentalize everything like that. Can't lie...sometimes it takes more than one or 2 days to type out one of those lists and explain myself. I was fun at parties once. lol

 

Edit- wanted to add that r1+l1+strike could be an extended strike combo similar to the system we already had but ending with a strong strike...and r1+l1+grapple could be a new/old aspect of chaining newly captured/animated grapple moves together ala All Stars and ending with a strong grapple or submission.

 

So it seems like you appreciate the presentation aspects of an OMG moment. i get it and i agree that commentary and the crowd should react accordingly to events and there should nice camera cuts that capture big moments, i just believe that can be done without OMGs. i know Visual Concepts too much to doubt their ability to do it and i know what has been done in the past with camera cuts when it comes to WWE games. for commentary, i had the idea that their subject matter be directly related to health. so when bars are green, mild banter about past events or fun facts or whatever. someone gets into yellow, no more lame banter, commentary starts to recognize whos on top, they recommend strategy, and they point out patterns that lead to that point as well as any limb damage. getting into red and then the purple/gray colored limbs, commentary gets more passionate, they react loud to big moves and near falls, sound more anxious when they see a big spot coming. any big spots that happen along the way will get proper reactions too. the crowd can follow suit. green- a general buzz with a few distinct voices coming from the crowd, yellow- the chants start, red and so on- loud buzz between spots, louder pinfall counts, louder kickout reactions, bigger reactions to strong moves and big spots.

 

as far as camera cuts go, they can attach camera cuts to types of moves and spots. for example, if i do an outside dive, my button command triggers the proper angle, regardless if i land the dive or not.

 

i like the potential of your Payback idea, but I want them to adopt the Badge system from NBA 2K and let us assign them in create-a-moveset. Badges are more specific and with attribute requirements, would really help everyone feel different to play as/against. Paybacks are okay but theyre very general. Badges really would help zone in who exactly everyone is in the ring. As for your idea specifically, i like it i just wouldnt have it be uninterruptible simply because i like the idea of trading combos Japanese-style but also just stopping a combo with one big move. say if someone had a gold Strike Combo Badge, they would unlock that section in CAM and there would be 10 maximum slots (3 for bronze badge, 5 for silver), but you can decide to end the combo before 10, so like at the 7th slot you can choose to end it there with a strong strike or submission if you want or even a grapple like a german suplex. it would be done manually by just holding L1 as you press away at Square, and it would be interruptible/reversible but with a gold Strike Combo badge it would be much harder to stop you, unless youre facing someone with the Strike Combo badge as well. theyd have a better chance at reversing than someone who doesnt, and they can go right into their own combo whereas a Badge-less person can just reverse with one move (if successful). the reversal window gets larger if you try it more than twice. id like it manual and reversible because it just opens up the door for things to go many different ways and personally i would rather have control over that many moves than to just watch them happen.

 

regardless of what i want, it does look like we may be moving past OMG moves for three reasons: 1. Yukes is gone and since they were implemented in WWE 13, I think its safe to say it was their idea. 2. they added a bunch of outside dives to the regular springboard section that could have easily been OMG moments. 3. The OMGs they added in 19 were the cage break and Triple Powerbombs which admittedly would be hard to do without OMG (though i can think of a way) and then the multi-AA and Kendo Yes Lock which I dont mind because they work like super finishers basically.

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  • 2 weeks later...

i'm ok with them, all i would like to see added is OMGs with weapons, then they would be worth it and make no DQ matches more brutal. for example i would love to see one where they bend the chair over someone's skull like JBL did to Eddie etc. or one with the sledgehammer when you break it over their back like Triple H did to Vince in 2006.

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