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Jmerc
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Of course hero movies are always going to draw views based solely on what they are. But, you tell me which of the pre-MCU movies (other than maybe the very first Spider-Man) were actually good, and I'm calling you a liar right on the spot. Were people happy with what we got back then, because we knew nothing else? Sure.

 

But, in retrospect, those movies were ass.

 

MCU perfected the formula and began making actual good movies. Who could argue otherwise? And who would want to go back to that? The only argument here is that the Spider-Man franchise was more successful under the umbrella of the MCU, and it goes without saying that Sony is not going to take the franchise back and match that popularity or success. They just won't. Period.

 

 

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Edit: Also, I do remember a time when the hero movie formula did almost peter out (Spider-man pun notwithstanding). I remember very clearly, a time when people were saying that movies like Spider-man and X-Men were not very good, and it sounded like studios were going to stop making them. So...yeah. You have rose-tinted glasses, I guess. There was a very real resurgence and revival of the hero movie genre, without which, Sony and Fox probably would have stopped trying to put out their own stuff. Seeing it done "right" definitely gave everyone else a kick in the ass. That kick pretty much came from Ironman and everything that followed with the MCU.

 

In the end, the point is, MCU always outclasses the other attempts at hero movies, and there is a very deep-seeded bit of truth in saying that Sony only gives a shit about Spider-Man in the first place because they think they can do the same thing (but they have never been able to, and are 99% likely not about to start getting it "right" now). They just put out another stinker with Venom. And yeah...I'd call Venom a failure. I wouldn't tiptoe around the definition of the world "failure". I would just call Venom a failure.

Edited by Generations
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The studios were never going to stop making these films, that's exactly my issue! lol So fans may have gotten hyperbolic (according to your memories) and say things that aren't true, who would've thought?

 

Rose-tinted glasses? When did I ever actually say I liked these movies?! My opinion on these films have nothing to do with what I'm arguing about.

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The studios were never going to stop making these films, that's exactly my issue! lol So fans may have gotten hyperbolic (according to your memories) and say things that aren't true, who would've thought?

 

Rose-tinted glasses? When did I ever actually say I liked these movies?! My opinion on these films have nothing to do with what I'm arguing about.

 

You say they weren't going to stop making those films...but that's based on nothing but your own foresight.

 

If they drove those franchises into the ground and kept making those movies worse and worse, then eventually no one would go and see them...and they would stop making them because they wouldn't make money.

 

We literally just saw Dark Phoenix get pulled from theaters for being a complete and utter piece of shit that nobody wanted to pay to see. That was the death of a franchise. That's exactly what it looks like.

 

And the "rose tinted glasses" comment was about you conveniently forgetting that the hero franchise film industry was indeed flopping hard and probably ready to pack it in before the MCU saved it. I said nothing about your opinion on any movies.

 

Hero films had been milked of everything they could. MCU came along and showed how to keep them fresh. This gave an undeniable breath of life back into the genre. Companies like Sony decided that keep making hero movies (nowhere near as successfully as MCU)...they did this because they thought they could find the same success as MCU (spoiler: they never could). And this is where we find ourselves today.

 

In the end, it's all about Sony wanting that golden egg-laying goose. But they don't realize the goose only lays golden eggs when it's treated the right way.

Edited by Generations
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That is such bs. Flopping? Give me a break. Look at the numbers from that period prior to Iron Man. That's what this is all based upon. This genre wasn't about to go extinct anytime soon at that point. How hyperbolic. How well would these movies have done a decade into the future? Who the hell knows? That's too many years removed to even guess. It's pure fantasy. But as a movie genre? It will never go away as long as movies exist. Despite having peaked many decades ago, westerns are still being made to this day. There's far less of them, but new ones still get made. And so will superhero films.

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Look at the numbers from that period prior to Iron Man. That's what this is all based upon.

 

Again...because THAT'S ALL THAT THERE WAS.

 

You could just as easily say that bologna sandwiches are "popular" because they sold like hotcakes during the great depression. But that doesn't put them on the same tier of "success" as filet mignon. Bologna sandwiches are kind of a "failure" when you compare them to filet mignon.

 

You can't compare "success" in a time when there were no options to a time when we've seen how much better those movies can be. It's all relative. Yes...the genre was headed for a downfall...because it was being abused. The movies were getting worse and worse, and MCU slapped a big old bandaid on that.

 

No one is saying that hero movies would have been abandoned indefinitely, or never returned to any sort of prominence...but the genre was likely going to fall on dark days until Hollywood decided to dig it back up at some point. The only reason why that never happened is because Marvel Studios said "Hey...we think we should start directing our franchises the way that our fans want to see them". I mean...that's literally the reason why Marvel Studios came to exist (because they weren't happy with the way their IPs were being utilized).

Edited by Generations
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They wanted ownership of their own properties because they wanted the money for themselves. lol If you don't think that's what it's ultimately, primarily about then you've been drinking too much MCU Kool-aid.

 

Here's the data: https://www.the-numbers.com/market/creative-type/Super-Hero

 

Where's a genre heading for a downfall based on that data? Where's a genre on the verge of death? Look at years just before 08. Do you see? Look at the profits. Look at the tickets sold. Where's a sharp decline? Anyone see the irony in the two subsequent years after 08? They're weaker than the period you two are harping on.

 

And reminder, I'm not arguing against the fact that Marvel slingshot the genre into new heights. I'm only saying the years prior weren't the "failures" they've been made out to be. And I think it's presumptuous to say the genre was likely heading into a dark age when there's not enough actual data to make such a grand statement.

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Genre would've been fine. You'da just had like 2 or 3 years of bleh in between each gem and we wouldn't have the oversaturation we have now despite the world's love of them

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a couple fan made Endgame edits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the Black Sabbath edit was bad *censored*ing ass

Heres one of my favorite Fan Made Endgame Edits, I like the 2nd and 3rd

 

 

 

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Wonder if Sony can do a multiverse thing while still keeping Tom Holland as Spider-Man, and in that world there's no MCU characters. That way, if the franchise goes back to MCU again, then there's no storyline issue.

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If my understanding of the deal is correct...then Sony refusing it makes even less sense to me than it made before.

 

Because, from what I could figure...the old deal was that Disney would pay for full production of the movies and Sony would get 5% of day one sales. That's it...5% and only on the opening day. Free money for doing nothing...but only 5%...and only on day one. And the new deal sought to offer Sony 50% of all tickets, but wanted them to help pay for the actual production. I have to imagine that 50% of total sales would have brought them more money at the end of the day than 5% of day one...even after the production costs.

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Guest Fight Me.

If my understanding of the deal is correct...then Sony refusing it makes even less sense to me than it made before.

 

Because, from what I could figure...the old deal was that Disney would pay for full production of the movies and Sony would get 5% of day one sales. That's it...5% and only on the opening day. Free money for doing nothing...but only 5%...and only on day one. And the new deal sought to offer Sony 50% of all tickets, but wanted them to help pay for the actual production. I have to imagine that 50% of total sales would have brought them more money at the end of the day than 5% of day one...even after the production costs.

It's the other way around. Sony paid for full production and Disney got 5% and also all merchandising.

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If my understanding of the deal is correct...then Sony refusing it makes even less sense to me than it made before.

 

Because, from what I could figure...the old deal was that Disney would pay for full production of the movies and Sony would get 5% of day one sales. That's it...5% and only on the opening day. Free money for doing nothing...but only 5%...and only on day one. And the new deal sought to offer Sony 50% of all tickets, but wanted them to help pay for the actual production. I have to imagine that 50% of total sales would have brought them more money at the end of the day than 5% of day one...even after the production costs.

It's the other way around. Sony paid for full production and Disney got 5% and also all merchandising.

 

Yep. But merch is something that they would get regardless of the deal.

Sony paid for full production, but the work itself was still on Marvel/Disney

 

It's like a group project where one person brings paper and pen and gets the grade, while the other person does all the work on the project and gets a handshake

Edited by LEGION
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Yeah the all merchandising was the real seller and Marvel still physically paid for that. Sometimes Sony would co-finance with another company for production. I believe they went 75/25 with another company for Homecoming. Marvel wanted to go in half with Sony so Sony would be paying less to make the film, but the profit would be split as well instead of that 5% day one Marvel would get.

 

I understand why they didn't take the deal plus I get why Marvel wanted more but the deal is kinda one sided. I mean, if it took 200 million to make a film and you get a bil off it, like in the previous example, Sony pays like 150, the other 50 is co-financed through whoever with their profit percentage deal thrown in, more than likely the co-financier makes their money back with a little on top. Sony would still get like maybe 750 mil from it depending on the terms of the agreement

 

If they take the Marvel deal, Sony would only have to go in 100 mil, Marvel finances the other 100, but each of them would get like 400 mil in profits. And then if they went half on the merchandise as well, dunno how much they make from that, they'd get that as well, but it prolly still wouldn't crack the 750 they would've gotten with the previous deal.

 

That's what I'm getting out of it

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Some notes outta D23Expo....

 

 

  • Loki confirmed to be 6 hours.
  • 1 episode of 'WHAT IF...?' per each of the 23 MCU films!
  • Sharon Carter is confirmed to return in The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
  • John Walker character (played by Wyatt Russell, son of Kurt Russell) confirmed for The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
  • Darcey Lewis character from Thor movies will return in WandaVision.
  • Jimmy Woo character (played by Randal Park in Ant-Man) will return in WandaVision.
  • MS. MARVEL show officially confirmed! (She WILL appear in movies.)
  • SHE HULK show officially confirmed!
  • MOON KNIGHT show officially confirmed!

 

 

 

Will update this post as more comes out

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