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liontamer*

2K Games is expanding, WWE games overhaul expected

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I literally said they *censored*ed up in later years. So I didnt need to name the duds....lol But, ok. Drive right past that line. I hate when people do that.

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I find THQ better because I prefer "arcade" gameplay and my career mode is a terrible grind fest and the most recent one is loot box city with ridiculous lag

 

I played 2k17 on 360 and it was actually fun. More fun than 16, 17 and 18 on XBO

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Ratings talk a lot which is a better game and which won universal applause.

I mean, this is true. It's no mistake that a game like Here Comes The Pain was universally praised when it came out. It might not have aged well for some people, but you put that game next to 2k18 and the difference in quality is staggering. I'm not talking visual fidelity or model accuracy, but rather game design itself. One game is fun and requires all your attention and effort, and the other doesn't.

 

The recent 2k games are horribly designed, and it's not just a wrestling fan saying that, it's almost all outlets that are known for reviewing games. I genuinely wouldn't even know where to begin when I'm talking about my disappointment with these games, but I guess I'll make an attempt.

 

A few years ago, I used to think I liked the simulation approach that these games were taking, but that has changed for a number of reasons. I realized later that in the recent games there is no sense of urgency within the matches at all. You know what's going to happen in a match five seconds before it even happens, the same dragged out animations are waiting to be played out once you press R2; you and your friend are both aware of the reversals left in the bar below, it's all very formulaic. If I want to do a quick table finisher on one opponent outside the ring and then quickly run back inside to do a RKO, I can't. Because it's really, really slow. There is no instant response in the game for the player's input. There's no way of doing cool creative shit, or stuff that happens which you weren't expecting.

 

The monotony is even more obvious in multi-man matches, and what we get with these is the exact opposite of what we see on TV, an utter lack of chaos and a very vanilla simulation of every wrestler simply waiting to reverse the other wrestler's move. I find myself subconsciously avoiding these matches because I don't want to be stuck in the middle of the ring trying so vehemently to target the right opponent before being thrown out of the ring in 15fps nightmare followed by having to wait outside for 5 minutes because of a new cool simulation feature in the matches which makes you rest outside because it looks so realistic and stuff!!1!!1!! :argh:

 

When my friend and I booted up 2k18 for the first time a few months ago, we were appalled at how poorly designed the main-menu was. That initial impression sorta painted the whole picture for us. We still don't know if certain variations of matches exist in the game or not, and there are some obvious omissions that should have been there in the first place. It's a very amusing showcase of incompetence.

Create-a-match is there, but half-assed, much like everything else, and somehow it isn't as good as the one from SvR11 (something I said a lot when I was playing 2k18), which I played with the very same friend years ago and ended up loving *head scratch*.

I just don't get it. Everything just feels artificial in the game, I don't feel any emotion playing the actual thing, the whole game feels like a massive glitch.

 

I was discussing another point with a good friend over here a while back, and I'll mention it here. If they're so concerned about wanting their games to be simulation focused, then I want Brock Lesnar to feel like Brock Lesnar, not 'Wrestler C who has the most overall but plays and feels exactly like the rest'.

I've come to realize that the game is actually stuck between wanting to be simulation based and arcade-y. It wants to appeal you with it's numbers and it's illusion of depth, but it's also really hollow and generally outdated in it's overall presentation and performance. At some point, you'll ask yourself whether the numbers are just there to fool you and actually don't matter at all.

 

I won't even get started on the soulless nature of MyCareer and Universe modes, and I'm sure people know already what those are like.

Instead, I'll just say this. Whether it's the create-a-story mode, season mode, or RTWM from any of the older games, they'd always beat Universe or MyCareer on the sole basis of being properly functioning game modes.

 

Edit: With all that said, I do genuinely feel that the strength of these recent games lies in the creation suite and everything surrounding it, along with the impressive graphical fidelity and the character models. This is where the 2k games are undeniably good.

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I cannot believe people are still bringing up games like HCTP as if it acts as some kind of valid argument. THQ themselves never lived up to HCTP, claiming 2K hasn't is just a silly distraction of an argument.

 

I enjoy the 2K games. Are they perfect? *Censored* no. But they at least started moving forward instead of the constant stagnation THQ found themselves in for almost 3 quarters of a decades worth of releases, and at least 2K, as annoying as their "don't show don't tell" approach to marketing is, didn't have an idiot claiming "YOU'RE JUST PLAYING THE GAME WRONG" when bugs were pointed out, or another idiot who ended up with the fan catch phrase of "maybe next year" or hell, a third guy (admittedly nowhere near as much an idiot as the other two) with an almost perverse obsession with overselling.

THQ had the same amount of bugs as 2K but without the forward momentum. I still remember waiting for years for a goddamn chokeslam that didn't have a ridiculous flip-over sell. I still remember their horrible excuse for not including entrance attires, or their excuse for the crotch blur (good job guys, 2K almost immediately proved that shit false), or the stupid "slots" argument that to this day is still stuck in some peoples minds despite being complete bullshit.

 

I still remember the lead-up to SvR 2011, where someone pointed out that the demo they were showing to Bryan Williams seemed to be missing a shit-ton of moves and he simply said (paraphrased) "Oh they just haven't been converted yet, they'll be in the full game". So what big thing is 2011 remembered for again? or right, the cumulative removal of over 400 moves, some of which we still haven't been able to get back yet. Or how about the build-up to WWE '12 with the black square bug that was clearly visible in pre-release builds, and Corey Ledesma claimed that the bug had already been fixed and would not be present in the release build. Guess what bug was still in the release build? At least 2K has never straight up lied to our faces in promotional content.

 

And gameplay wise, I understand a lot of people prefer the arcade style that was once head of the table, and for those people I sincerely do hope that 2K gets a second team working on a more arcade-like game (perhaps bring back All Stars since it was *censored*ing fantastic), but I've had more than enough of arcade personally, and I truly enjoy the simulation direction of the series, especially as we're moving into a new era where despite their MAAAAANY failings, WWE is taking a few directions and pointers form the indy and puroresu wrestling markets.

 

Now, what do I hope is obtained from this higher focus on 2K managements part? Well first off, Yukes has got to go. I truly believe they are a major part of the past stagnation and I just can't imagine its easy on VC having to constantly deal with the language barrier there. Secondly, a higher budget means more money for more talented programmers to be put into more systems, and hopefully a LOT more money for bug testing.

 

Unfortunately I doubt even now think that WWE will allow the end of the yearly release schedule, that greed train just shows no sign whatsoever of slowing down.

Spot on sir. I actually bought HCTP again recently and unfortunately it could not hold me for too long, I need my sim. Of course I 100% agree with Yukes needing to go and I understand people who have concerns for what that might mean for the series but I can bet the house that a game more bare than 2K15 would ever be released and for what its worth, I actually liked 2K15 for what it is and in many ways think that gameplay-wise, the games slowly started to go backward on the sim style after that. It felt like they spread the simulation thin rather than built on it from 2K15.

 

Peoples complaints with 2K are mostly cosmetic I have noticed, and thats a different conversation than I am usually ever trying to have about this game because I am always gameplay-first so I still believe a sim wrestling game is in the right hands with these guys and I really want to see Visual Concepts vision for this game without the difficulty of Yukes and their dusty old duct taped engine.

I know they are different sports, but playing NBA 2K almost my whole life, I can say that it is the pinnacle of simulation and with the increase in resources and money, I would love to see the same love and effort be put towards WWE because I am confident they can knock it out of the park.

 

My complaints with 2K is that the gameplay is still as boring as it was under THQ's last few years. If it was better, then I'd have fewer issues with MyCAREER. The odd thing is that WWE games after 13 have gotten more content, especially moves, so there shouldn't really be a reason for me to get bored.

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For people who are complaining on yearly releases, its not only with WWE but it is also with 2K. They both got a deal and both are greedy for yearly release. Dont paint it as it is WWE fault on a whole.

 

The WWE games sell 2 to 3 million copies yearly. If they increase the budget and move the window to biennial it doesnt mean they will sell 6 million copies, which will leave out huge profits out of the equation and they may even get loss. 2K knew it very well and they are doing the business to have profits. Just business 101 basics.

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If it ever went back in the direction of THQ, I would honestly quit buying.

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I mean the decline started when they went full simulation. Thats just how I feel anyway.

Simulation is absolutely not the problem. There are plenty of examples of highly successful simulation games. We make one of them...

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

Uhhh I was talking about nba2k / VC. No one is more critical of this game and wants to fix the problems more than me. My point is - the simulation direction is not inherently problematic. Its the current execution that has soured people on the idea that it can be done while still remaining fun.

 

Anyways.... Ill let 19 speak for itself. Its flawed as they all are but some of the stuff weve been working towards is starting to come together (speaking of gameplay).

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Well, my apology for misunderstanding you. I can respect you saying that. That alone just proves that you do care. But weve always said that about you Tim. Lol Im just very passionate about the games because I grew up with the wrestling games. So I just want the most fun game as possible. Not just for me but for everyone. I know you want the same. I mean youre a fan at heart which is why we value you here. And as far as 19 I do have high hopes. I believe it gets a little better each year. Im biased because I miss the silly shit in the arcade games lol Climbing and running the barricades, climbing the announce table, jumping off a ladder on the announce table.

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focusing it more towards simulation is the best thing thats happened to this series.

 

i popped in SmackDown vs. RAW 2009 last week. Felt like i was playing WCW Nitro on PS1 or gd WrestleMania arcade. Its so fast paced.

 

remember when you would do a move, and the CPU wouldn't even stay down long enough for u to do a diving attack...lol. You couldn't set anything up in the old games. Because u could hit like 3 powerbombs. And by the time u left the ring to grab a table...they were outside bout to back suplex u as u dig under the ring.

 

remember SmackDown vs. RAW 2011, where it was just chain grapple reversals for like an hour. U and big show having a damn hammerlock/wristlock/headlock battle for 7 mins.

 

Or the 2 different times we had " Pin Glitches". SvR 2011....the Ai wouldn't kick out. U could do a dropkick at the begining of the match and win. If the CPU was knocked down. He wasn't getting up. It was like u were fighting King Hippo

 

or the pin glitch in WWE 13. Where you couldn't get a 2 count. The A.I would only kick out at the 1 count. And when we complained, that aubrey dude told us it wasn't a glitch. but we was playing the game wrong. Then like 6 months later. Finally admitted that it was a glitch and not supposed to happen like that

 


omg...i forgot about the one game. Was it WWE 12 or 13? Where Universe Mode was ruined. There was a glitch where u just wouldn't get storylines or cutscenes. Not sure everyone got it. But i def did. I played that game a whole year. I got like 6 Universe cutscenes ever.

 

and the one game that had the "Universe mode storylines written by Paul Heyman" They never worked. I never got one. I was big mad that year. They like always figured a way to fck it up. SvR11 had a decent roster, fun weapon physics and Universe Mode. But it had a pin glitch and they removed over 700 moves from the previous game. So everyone had the same moves. U couldn't even make CAWs of ppl because their moves were gone.

 

WWE 13. Great roster, great arenas, fun enuff Attitude era mode. More moves, match types, creation modes, the match pacing system and match creator. All awesome. But then it had the pin glitch and Universe mode was unplayable

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Tim is by far the best community manager we've ever had, and he's not even the community manager. Say what you want about the games, but the man is dedicated and has earned all of the respect. Like.. at least 12, or 13 respect.

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I'm biased because I miss the silly shit in the arcade games lol Climbing and running the barricades, climbing the announce table, jumping off a ladder on the announce table.

All this can be in the game and it can still be considered 100% simulation. This stuff occurs on WWE programming so it's fair game to be included because as someone who wants a pure simulation wrestling game, I also want the things you listed in the game as well. Now if we're talking about hopping off Times Square buildings and helicopters and whatnot lol then that's probably best for a true arcade game (which I hope they are making).

 

I won't disagree with the people who say the gameplay is boring because I can definitely see where you're coming from. I get bored too. But as Tim said, I'm willing the bet the house that it's not because of the simulation direction. People conflate simulation with slow monotony and it's only because 2K says they want it to be a simulation and the game just ends up being slow and monotonous. The problem is that the game isn't sim enough and has a long way to go before it's there. Think about it. What other simulation game series has half their fanbase begging for the series to go into an arcade direction? Certainly not NBA 2K, FIFA fans adore that game, same with PES fans, not Madden, not even UFC. That's because all those games do simulation so well that no one is thinking of an arcade style. Now look at WWE. Yukes built that engine for fast paced, pick-up-and-play arcadey style gameplay and that's what was made for 10+ years until suddenly, THQ or 2K said "now we wanna go the simulation route with the series". That's going in almost the complete opposite direction after spending so many years doing something else. So because of that, the simulation gameplay is far from where it needs to be. But as I said before, knowing what 2K and Visual Concepts are capable of as far as simulation goes, when the WWE series gets there, 2K dropping an arcade game would only be a cherry on top. We all love wresting, don't you think a true simulation of the thing we all love would be fun as hell?

 

Now I can talk about specific gameplay improvements all day, but really the big problem this game has is a lack of engagement, both physically and mentally. The game does too much for you and doesn't switch things up enough. Things like OMG moments where you can press a button, put your controller down and grab a drink while a cutscene plays doesn't help, neither does the feeling of every opponent being the same, or everyone you play as feeling the same for that matter. Attributes mean very little, same with weight, same with limb damage. The game lacks depth and nuance and requires very little thought and strategy. Pick up, slam, pick up, punch, punch, finisher works for an arcade game, but wrestling is more complex so a wrestling simulation game has to be almost just as complex. I don't know what 2K19 has in store and to be honest I'm expecting more of the same, but the news that more money is being put into the series is only good news because if WWE won't give developers the time then at least they have more money to potentially make up for it.

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GMP, yeah Tim is great. I always state that because its fact. You can clearly see he cares. Weve never had a community manager like him. And EJ amazing points and posts. So Im willing to give Simulation more of a chance.

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I mean the decline started when they went full simulation. Thats just how I feel anyway.

Simulation is absolutely not the problem. There are plenty of examples of highly successful simulation games. We make one of them...

 

Wish y'all fixed MyCAREER instead of making it worse every year.

 

 

I'm biased because I miss the silly shit in the arcade games lol Climbing and running the barricades, climbing the announce table, jumping off a ladder on the announce table.

All this can be in the game and it can still be considered 100% simulation. This stuff occurs on WWE programming so it's fair game to be included because as someone who wants a pure simulation wrestling game, I also want the things you listed in the game as well. Now if we're talking about hopping off Times Square buildings and helicopters and whatnot lol then that's probably best for a true arcade game (which I hope they are making).

 

I won't disagree with the people who say the gameplay is boring because I can definitely see where you're coming from. I get bored too. But as Tim said, I'm willing the bet the house that it's not because of the simulation direction. People conflate simulation with slow monotony and it's only because 2K says they want it to be a simulation and the game just ends up being slow and monotonous. The problem is that the game isn't sim enough and has a long way to go before it's there. Think about it. What other simulation game series has half their fanbase begging for the series to go into an arcade direction? Certainly not NBA 2K, FIFA fans adore that game, same with PES fans, not Madden, not even UFC. That's because all those games do simulation so well that no one is thinking of an arcade style. Now look at WWE. Yukes built that engine for fast paced, pick-up-and-play arcadey style gameplay and that's what was made for 10+ years until suddenly, THQ or 2K said "now we wanna go the simulation route with the series". That's going in almost the complete opposite direction after spending so many years doing something else. So because of that, the simulation gameplay is far from where it needs to be. But as I said before, knowing what 2K and Visual Concepts are capable of as far as simulation goes, when the WWE series gets there, 2K dropping an arcade game would only be a cherry on top. We all love wresting, don't you think a true simulation of the thing we all love would be fun as hell?

 

Now I can talk about specific gameplay improvements all day, but really the big problem this game has is a lack of engagement, both physically and mentally. The game does too much for you and doesn't switch things up enough. Things like OMG moments where you can press a button, put your controller down and grab a drink while a cutscene plays doesn't help, neither does the feeling of every opponent being the same, or everyone you play as feeling the same for that matter. Attributes mean very little, same with weight, same with limb damage. The game lacks depth and nuance and requires very little thought and strategy. Pick up, slam, pick up, punch, punch, finisher works for an arcade game, but wrestling is more complex so a wrestling simulation game has to be almost just as complex. I don't know what 2K19 has in store and to be honest I'm expecting more of the same, but the news that more money is being put into the series is only good news because if WWE won't give developers the time then at least they have more money to potentially make up for it.

 

I dunno if I'm being hypocritical, but I agree with you 100%, at least with the last paragraph.

 

Plus, it makes no sense for opponent AI to reverse moves after being beaten to a pulp for a long time, not even wrestlers in real life would do that.

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Have you ever seen a squash match?

 

Good. Like, I don't get why AI pins after every signature or submission finisher. Rock and Trips never or rarely ever pinned after spinebusters, they usually set it up for their finisher. And how many wrestlers pin their opponents after submission finishers and even win by that?

 

Also very odd to have a wrestler attack another wrestler being pinned or pinning in Elimination Chamber, but that'd be a good feature to have if you have Allies thing. Like, if Triple H and HBK are in the same match as opponents but have agreed to work together, it'd make sense if the AI prevented the other from losing, unless at some point one of them decided to betray the other and let them get eliminated.

 

 

Also, are you going to incorporate Raw 2's Season Mode into MyCAREER or even the Universe Mode? that'd be pretty awesome and make either mode more fun.

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actually, squash matches work perfectly, mostly, but matches where most wrestlers in actual matches wouldn't get up or be able to fight back is what I'm talking about, unless they're early 90s Taker or late 90s Kane.

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

Uhhh I was talking about nba2k / VC. No one is more critical of this game and wants to fix the problems more than me. My point is - the simulation direction is not inherently problematic. Its the current execution that has soured people on the idea that it can be done while still remaining fun.

 

Anyways.... Ill let 19 speak for itself. Its flawed as they all are but some of the stuff weve been working towards is starting to come together (speaking of gameplay).

So you admit the games suck ass? Interesting

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

Uhhh I was talking about nba2k / VC. No one is more critical of this game and wants to fix the problems more than me. My point is - the simulation direction is not inherently problematic. Its the current execution that has soured people on the idea that it can be done while still remaining fun.

 

Anyways.... Ill let 19 speak for itself. Its flawed as they all are but some of the stuff weve been working towards is starting to come together (speaking of gameplay).

So you admit the games suck ass? Interesting
Atleast he is being honest and I appreciate him for it. The CM on 2K forums wont even show up. And that mod on 2K forums zeokage gives infraction for anything we talk against the game or post. He dont even want us to talk about 2K19 not coming on Nintendo switch. He says it is a rumour. How ridiculous.

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

Uhhh I was talking about nba2k / VC. No one is more critical of this game and wants to fix the problems more than me. My point is - the simulation direction is not inherently problematic. Its the current execution that has soured people on the idea that it can be done while still remaining fun.

 

Anyways.... Ill let 19 speak for itself. Its flawed as they all are but some of the stuff weve been working towards is starting to come together (speaking of gameplay).

So you admit the games suck ass? Interesting
Atleast he is being honest and I appreciate him for it. The CM on 2K forums wont even show up. And that mod on 2K forums zeokage gives infraction for anything we talk against the game or post. He dont even want us to talk about 2K19 not coming on Nintendo switch. He says it is a rumour. How ridiculous.

 

 

Last year, I made the first post on the 2k forums giving out some new info I found on another site. Zeokage deleted my post and remade it as if he discovered the info. I never said anything but was always thinking... jeez

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Tim, you know I like you, and I appreciate you. But I cant have you just throw that out there like you guys game is 100% flaw free. You guys are definitely successful. But success doesnt always equate to good or perfect. There are a lot of things you guys can still improve upon. And Im talking about gameplay. Not success actually. The gameplay to me went down once simulation became the main focus. Its not as fast paced as the action on tv is, some of the mocapped moves look off, the clipping, etc. Everything can be approved upon of course. I mean even last year or two years ago someone from 2K said last gen was holding you guys back. So last year dropping last gen shouldve been the end all be all of wrestling games. I didnt feel that. I was told Career Mode and Universe would be focused on drastically, I didnt see that. Just saying. Im optimistic about you guys next entry but I have to give my opinion.

Uhhh I was talking about nba2k / VC. No one is more critical of this game and wants to fix the problems more than me. My point is - the simulation direction is not inherently problematic. Its the current execution that has soured people on the idea that it can be done while still remaining fun.

 

Anyways.... Ill let 19 speak for itself. Its flawed as they all are but some of the stuff weve been working towards is starting to come together (speaking of gameplay).

So you admit the games suck ass? Interesting

 

 

that's not what i said at all.

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