U.S. Politics Discussion

[Generations]

Now Iran is threatening the US with the "mother of all wars".

 

Remember before Trump ever got elected, and people were saying that he was going to bring us WW3? Yeah...Russia gaining more of a handhold on the US every single day, threats from all sides, and weakened ties with our actual allies. Blatant storm of private interests and the buck being passed.

[Ernez]

You know how we get embarrassed by old things we said on the internet? I wonder if in 10-20 years those people will be.

[Generations]

You know how we get embarrassed by old things we said on the internet? I wonder if in 10-20 years those people will be.

 

Meaning what? The people saying WW3 is going to happen?

 

Tbh, I think it's already happening...it's a digital/culture/trade war that most people are oblivious to. If the US president is a puppet to the Soviet Union, and is making decisions that directly undermine the world economy and shift power from one place to another, then we're already smack dab in the middle of WW3.

 

I think the Trump supporters who think he's a "patriot" and not in collusion with Russia are going to feel foolish, yeah...if that's what you meant.

[maskedmaniac]

Its impossible to feel foolish when you are delusional.

[Generations]

True. We're definitely at the point where you could have video evidence of Trump drowning a baby in a bathtub, and his supporters would say that it's fake footage. There's no standard that exists for accountability anymore. I'm not sure there ever was.

[Ernez]

 

You know how we get embarrassed by old things we said on the internet? I wonder if in 10-20 years those people will be.

 

Meaning what? The people saying WW3 is going to happen?

 

Tbh, I think it's already happening...it's a digital/culture/trade war that most people are oblivious to. If the US president is a puppet to the Soviet Union, and is making decisions that directly undermine the world economy and shift power from one place to another, then we're already smack dab in the middle of WW3.

 

I think the Trump supporters who think he's a "patriot" and not in collusion with Russia are going to feel foolish, yeah...if that's what you meant.

 

Sorry, for some reason I thought I quoted what Muur (I think it was) posted a few pages back showing a friend or something.

[AONO.]

I stopped posting in the politics and mass hsootings thread for a reason... but... come on people. Please. Just do some research and try to have a critical and analytical mind in this.

 

Well ... if people would actually stop believeing the fearmongering and that Putin wants to reinstate the "Soviet Union" or a Great Russian Empire", that would be a great start on stopping the potential WW3.

 

Yes, Putin is an autocrat, is he evil incarnate as how the mainstream media nad neo conservatives want to portray him? No. Russian milittary power is nowhere close to the US, and yet somehow, they are a threat? They are way owerpowered on sea and air, and land invasion to the US for sure is in no way a realistic option. And why would they "expand" for any logical reason onto Europe? Putin is many things, but he is in no way an irrational or a lunatic.... While the US and NATO have basicly encricled Russia and went back on their promise more than a decade ago that they won't expand NATO to the east. Then Russia puts up their defenses, and somehow they ae agressive? Get *censored*ing real.

 

The annexation of Crimea. Yes shit happened there, and who started it? The US goverement by meddling in Ukraine and wanted to secure them as an ally to corner Russia even more. They are hungry for power and nothing more, they can't let Russia be a possible great power in the world, even though Germany, France and even Italy surpasses it in economic power.

 

They've "meddled in last election"? Yeah, I'm sure it had such a great effect on why Trump is president. And it's not like the US goveremnt has changed regimes and not just "meddled" in an election of dozens of other countries since the WWII. The hypocrisy is unreal.

 

And all this talk about Trump being a "puppet" of Putin... Just... how? He is not a puppet, but he is being played. Hillary would go to war with Russia, she even campaigned on it... So if you are Vladimir Putin, would you rather have a dumb president you could easily have your way with or a woman who wants to bomb the shit out of you?

 

And Russia is miles away far from communism or "Soviet Union", so sorry, Gen, I'm not calling you out or anything, but I can just see that you don't know much about it. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, don't get me wrong, on the contrary.

 

Putin is a man that is taking a stance in foreign affairs, and to be honest if it wasn't for him, US would shit on them even harder and the country would be in shambles... So all I'm saying is... can you really blame the guy for takinga straong stance against the notion of of US being the one and only major superpower and policeman in the world who will wage war and meddle and run other countries?

 

 

 

[Generations]

Smh...

 

I in no way have time to respond to any of that right now. But *censored*ing hell...I will later.

[AONO.]

Smh...

 

I in no way have time to respond to any of that right now. But *censored*ing hell...I will later.

 

Sure. But please... only if you are willing to actually converse.

I'll be honest and say that I'm very new to the logistics of politics however I am confused as to how so many people are for socialism. From what I can see, it's never worked and only lead to bad outcomes... am I missing something?

 

Depends on what you know about socialism and. Many socialistic countries have failed because of the imposed sanctions by the (mainly but not solely) US.

But there are some varioations where the goveremnt is more involved in things, and it works more then well. I'm sure you could hear about the Scandinavian example.

 

It's very hard to maintain any kind of society when you are blocked from trading with the rest of the world.

[Generations]

 

It's very hard to maintain any kind of society when you are blocked from trading with the rest of the world.

 

 

Which is what we're currently doing under Trump...so, what's your angle here?

 

And out of curiosity, what country do you live in anyway? Legitimate question, because it is absolutely important to the subject material.

 

Obviously, my opinions on the current world affairs are based on what I think is truly best for myself, and for the US, and for as many of the US' true allies as possible. Aligning with places like Russia and North Korea might help them regain some form of society...but we really don't need to support dictators when we're turning our backs on democracy to do so. When you have a laundry list of reliable allies, who are not lead by dictators, you don't turn your back on them to embrace a handful of nations who are notoriously cut-throat.

 

I'm sure there are people in Russia who are thrilled with the prospect of their nation having a bigger role in world affairs. But that isn't our goal. That shouldn't be our goal. We have no reason for that to be our goal. And when you side with dictators, you don't side with the people anyway...you side with their oppressors.

[nWo_Kevin]

Now Iran is threatening the US with the "mother of all wars".

 

Remember before Trump ever got elected, and people were saying that he was going to bring us WW3? Yeah...Russia gaining more of a handhold on the US every single day, threats from all sides, and weakened ties with our actual allies. Blatant storm of private interests and the buck being passed.

 

Iran has been promising war with the US for years. Why? Well, I'd love to tell you but i'd be called an Islamaphobe. Hint: It has nothing to do with Trump.

 

The whole "Trump is a puppet to Putin" thing is laughable. As aono55 said, if anything he's probably be played. Or in my opinion, he's just not well informed on how bad Russia is. But than again neither was Obama. To Trump's credit though he has done multiple things against Russia, which makes the puppet thing even less credible for anyone who wants to be honest with themselves.

 

In regards to meddling in the election....it was never about getting Trump elected. It was about dividing the country and making the country as a whole look bad.

 

P.S. Kudos to M3J for starting this 2 week old thread back up, just because he needed to vent about his Facebook friends.

[Generations]

 

In regards to meddling in the election....it was never about getting Trump elected. It was about dividing the country and making the country as a whole look bad.

 

 

You really believe that?

 

After the dude met in person, and his body language (and words) told a completely different story? It always amazes me how some people have zero sense of body language. It feels like such a raw and human instinct, that I'm always shocked when people lack it...

 

Russia's stake was absolutely getting Trump elected. Trump's personal role is dividing the country. Putin has made a career of trying this time and time again...and this is the most successful he's ever been. His guy is in.

 

Now, I don't think Trump is outside of denying Putin's whims...so, maybe "puppet" is the wrong term. I merely believe that Trump is a guy who gets paid. From whoever wants to pay him. The active president of the United States is collecting outside paydays from entities who seek to weaken our nation. That's a firm belief that I currently have.

[M3J]

I don't think anyone is in for true socialism (most of people anyway), rather, they are in for some socialist-like aspects in a mostly capitalist society (for example, universal health care)

Yeah, and where people, especially fast food workers, can get livable minimum wage pay without worrying about an idiotic group of people complaining about how it's bad for the economy. Republicans defend businesses too much, and it literally makes no sense, especially when trickle-down economy isn't working. Just seems like they're brainwashed to defend businesses and blame minorities and immigrants for problems.

 

I'm sure far fewer people would have an issue with capitalism if it didn't result in people dying or struggling hard to make ends meet because companies and people are too greedy. Especially when wealthy people squander their money on shit like sending cars to outer space instead of using it to help their own like Flint getting clean water.

 

You know how we get embarrassed by old things we said on the internet? I wonder if in 10-20 years those people will be.

No, that'd actually require intelligence and growth for the right/Trump supporters.

 

 

Now Iran is threatening the US with the "mother of all wars".

 

Remember before Trump ever got elected, and people were saying that he was going to bring us WW3? Yeah...Russia gaining more of a handhold on the US every single day, threats from all sides, and weakened ties with our actual allies. Blatant storm of private interests and the buck being passed.

 

Iran has been promising war with the US for years. Why? Well, I'd love to tell you but i'd be called an Islamaphobe. Hint: It has nothing to do with Trump.

 

The whole "Trump is a puppet to Putin" thing is laughable. As aono55 said, if anything he's probably be played. Or in my opinion, he's just not well informed on how bad Russia is. But than again neither was Obama. To Trump's credit though he has done multiple things against Russia, which makes the puppet thing even less credible for anyone who wants to be honest with themselves.

 

In regards to meddling in the election....it was never about getting Trump elected. It was about dividing the country and making the country as a whole look bad.

 

P.S. Kudos to M3J for starting this 2 week old thread back up, just because he needed to vent about his Facebook friends.

 

If this was a left-wing saying how dumb the right/republicans are, you'd be crying about it.

[AONO.]

 

 

It's very hard to maintain any kind of society when you are blocked from trading with the rest of the world.

 

 

Which is what we're currently doing under Trump...so, what's your angle here?

 

And out of curiosity, what country do you live in anyway? Legitimate question, because it is absolutely important to the subject material.

 

Obviously, my opinions on the current world affairs are based on what I think is truly best for myself, and for the US, and for as many of the US' true allies as possible. Aligning with places like Russia and North Korea might help them regain some form of society...but we really don't need to support dictators when we're turning our backs on democracy to do so. When you have a laundry list of reliable allies, who are not lead by dictators, you don't turn your back on them to embrace a handful of nations who are notoriously cut-throat.

 

I'm sure there are people in Russia who are thrilled with the prospect of their nation having a bigger role in world affairs. But that isn't our goal. That shouldn't be our goal. We have no reason for that to be our goal. And when you side with dictators, you don't side with the people anyway...you side with their oppressors.

 

 

I don't see that it is, really. Maybe I travel?

 

I think you are asking because I'm not saying "we".

 

And my angle lies in the paragraph you didn't quote. Becase I wasn't trying to go too much into it, I was saying how socialistic countries were also largely ruined or still have low standards because of trade embargos and sanctions, and that the narrative of "socialism just doesn't work", like it's built like that, that it "just can't wrok", is much more complicated. And people don't take a lot of factors in when they are talking or thinking about. They are still in that collective narrative of assosciating socialism with "failure", something lesser than so called "liberal democracy" or whatever. And it has been built up in culture through whatever medium for generations. I don't think that's something obscure or "not known" actually.

 

So yeah, I get how you've connected that to the isolationst policy of the US that Trump is ideologically keen to. But that was far beside the point. Neverthless, you are right about that negativly imapcting the economy. But he also comes from the Nationalistic trend that has been going for years all over the world. And he wants to be an autocrat, like Putin. And Putin is an autocrat, in no way, shape or form a "dictator" like Kim Jong Un. Or hell even Xi Jinping, who is becoming one of the most powerful man in then world. I mean, those are very important differences. Yet, Putin and Xi are statesmen, with life experiences political experience and prowess, they became that kind of rulers. While, Trump is and was a reality star.

 

And very few large nations have had foreign plocies, if any, that have been more cut throat to the policies of the US goverment. To USSR, Russia, various communist countries, socialist countries, the middle east... The US goverment has installed a lot of regimes that have commited genocides and were one of the most cruelest dictators. They did that in Latin America, they did that in Middle East. The thing is, nobody is denying that even anymore. But it's just somehow "there", like it didn't actually matter. When people outside of the US, think about "America" they think about hipocrisy. That's the association that people have had for almost 20 years before Trump.

 

"That shouldn't be our goal. We have no reason for that to be our goal. And when you side with dictators, you don't side with the people anyway...you side with their oppressors. "

 

I'm kinda confused by this, since I see that you get it, and you are not wrong in both claims.But you are mmixing different things.

 

And Gen, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying all of this like I have been, because I clearly remember you saying months ago, when there were simillar discussions that you "don't pretend that you know much about these things". Yet you sound like you have deadset opinions on something that you've said you don't know much about , so I don't think that's really good in matters like these. I think it should be handled more critical and analytical.

 

And like, a president can't just pay another president to act like something... That's just not how foreign relations and international politics in general work. He can't be "his in guy". This whole terminology about their "collusion", relationship or whatever, just baffles me. Yet these are the strongest narratives. And that is very, very dangerous.

 

It shouldn't have even gotten to this stage, Trump should have been impeached, I don't even know how long ago now. But then, what if he was. What if neocons won and got a war with Russia, finally changing the Putin regime? That would have been WW3.

[nWo_Kevin]

If this was a left-wing saying how dumb the right/republicans are, you'd be crying about it.

I'm on Twitter. I get to see crap like that on a daily basis from the left. No tears have been shed yet. But you're right, your friend did seem dumb. Just not news worthy IMO.

 

 

In regards to meddling in the election....it was never about getting Trump elected. It was about dividing the country and making the country as a whole look bad.

You really believe that?

 

After the dude met in person, and his body language (and words) told a completely different story? It always amazes me how some people have zero sense of body language. It feels like such a raw and human instinct, that I'm always shocked when people lack it...

 

Russia's stake was absolutely getting Trump elected. Trump's personal role is dividing the country. Putin has made a career of trying this time and time again...and this is the most successful he's ever been. His guy is in.

 

Now, I don't think Trump is outside of denying Putin's whims...so, maybe "puppet" is the wrong term. I merely believe that Trump is a guy who gets paid. From whoever wants to pay him. The active president of the United States is collecting outside paydays from entities who seek to weaken our nation. That's a firm belief that I currently have.

 

 

You seem surprised by this belief, yet you seem to also believe it yourself. At least the latter half. The only difference is you believe it was meant to get Trump elected. The reason I don't buy this is because Russia didn't have the power to do that. In fact Trump couldn't have won the election if enough Obama voters didn't change their vote for Trump in the next pres election. The reason Trump won is because of the failures of the democratic party. As I already stated it was meant to cause chaos. They succeeded in doing that. Both sides are to blame for that.

 

Side note: I've seen the whole "body language" thing mentioned by the left a lot the past couple of days. Is this the latest talking point?

 

In regards to your last paragraph. What reports/stories/facts do you have to back up these claims? Or are they just beliefs you've created?

 

 

[M3J]

The point wasn't just to show the stupidity, but why I come across as so "anti-right" and blame Trump supporters for division.

I'm... what even...

 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021234525626609666

[LEGION]

How the hell is that not a fake account?

[maskedmaniac]

Trump is scared of Russia. He bullies or tries to bully our peaceful allies like Canada, Mexico, or Germany but not the one country that has been found to have messed with our elections.

[Mango kid]

Well why would you mess with the country that's supporting him and got him elected

[Bdon]

 

I don't think anyone is in for true socialism (most of people anyway), rather, they are in for some socialist-like aspects in a mostly capitalist society (for example, universal health care)

Yeah, and where people, especially fast food workers, can get livable minimum wage pay without worrying about an idiotic group of people complaining about how it's bad for the economy. Republicans defend businesses too much, and it literally makes no sense, especially when trickle-down economy isn't working. Just seems like they're brainwashed to defend businesses and blame minorities and immigrants for problems.

 

I'm sure far fewer people would have an issue with capitalism if it didn't result in people dying or struggling hard to make ends meet because companies and people are too greedy. Especially when wealthy people squander their money on shit like sending cars to outer space instead of using it to help their own like Flint getting clean water.

 

You know how we get embarrassed by old things we said on the internet? I wonder if in 10-20 years those people will be.

No, that'd actually require intelligence and growth for the right/Trump supporters.

 

 

Now Iran is threatening the US with the "mother of all wars".

 

Remember before Trump ever got elected, and people were saying that he was going to bring us WW3? Yeah...Russia gaining more of a handhold on the US every single day, threats from all sides, and weakened ties with our actual allies. Blatant storm of private interests and the buck being passed.

 

Iran has been promising war with the US for years. Why? Well, I'd love to tell you but i'd be called an Islamaphobe. Hint: It has nothing to do with Trump.

 

The whole "Trump is a puppet to Putin" thing is laughable. As aono55 said, if anything he's probably be played. Or in my opinion, he's just not well informed on how bad Russia is. But than again neither was Obama. To Trump's credit though he has done multiple things against Russia, which makes the puppet thing even less credible for anyone who wants to be honest with themselves.

 

In regards to meddling in the election....it was never about getting Trump elected. It was about dividing the country and making the country as a whole look bad.

 

P.S. Kudos to M3J for starting this 2 week old thread back up, just because he needed to vent about his Facebook friends.

 

If this was a left-wing saying how dumb the right/republicans are, you'd be crying about it.

 

For starters, the idea is not to be a fast food worker and maintain a livable wage lol. That's not how this shit works. You're not supposed to get a starter level job and just stay there and stay content forever. Far too many people don't understand this when discussing the economy. Most people often want more. And to get more they have to put in time & money to get there. Unless you're good with living with a bunch of people and only want a few basic things then fine but you're not supposed to be making an amazing living working at McDonalds. It's not sustainable and it isn't cost effective for the business to be paying people a shit ton of money an hour. That's why management gets salary and works more.

 

Secondly, people struggle to make ends meet because they keep doing nonsense to drive the cost of living up as well as imposing more taxes on us. Those social programs are a big reason for that. You look at countries engulfed in socialism and communism and there are people dying every day. Communism has on record killed more people than Hitler can dream of. Companies greediness is a problem but once again you put the fault in capitalism when you're really describing cronyism.

 

And I find that last sentence funny. You don't see me and Kevin constantly in here crying or starting topics back up to bitch about a few dumb asses on social media. We spend most of our time responding to other dumb shit said on here. We don't really have to get on and start anything because we know you'll already be there to do it.

 

 

 

 

It's very hard to maintain any kind of society when you are blocked from trading with the rest of the world.

 

 

Which is what we're currently doing under Trump...so, what's your angle here?

 

And out of curiosity, what country do you live in anyway? Legitimate question, because it is absolutely important to the subject material.

 

Obviously, my opinions on the current world affairs are based on what I think is truly best for myself, and for the US, and for as many of the US' true allies as possible. Aligning with places like Russia and North Korea might help them regain some form of society...but we really don't need to support dictators when we're turning our backs on democracy to do so. When you have a laundry list of reliable allies, who are not lead by dictators, you don't turn your back on them to embrace a handful of nations who are notoriously cut-throat.

 

I'm sure there are people in Russia who are thrilled with the prospect of their nation having a bigger role in world affairs. But that isn't our goal. That shouldn't be our goal. We have no reason for that to be our goal. And when you side with dictators, you don't side with the people anyway...you side with their oppressors.

 

 

I don't see that it is, really. Maybe I travel?

 

I think you are asking because I'm not saying "we".

 

And my angle lies in the paragraph you didn't quote. Becase I wasn't trying to go too much into it, I was saying how socialistic countries were also largely ruined or still have low standards because of trade embargos and sanctions, and that the narrative of "socialism just doesn't work", like it's built like that, that it "just can't wrok", is much more complicated. And people don't take a lot of factors in when they are talking or thinking about. They are still in that collective narrative of assosciating socialism with "failure", something lesser than so called "liberal democracy" or whatever. And it has been built up in culture through whatever medium for generations. I don't think that's something obscure or "not known" actually.

 

So yeah, I get how you've connected that to the isolationst policy of the US that Trump is ideologically keen to. But that was far beside the point. Neverthless, you are right about that negativly imapcting the economy. But he also comes from the Nationalistic trend that has been going for years all over the world. And he wants to be an autocrat, like Putin. And Putin is an autocrat, in no way, shape or form a "dictator" like Kim Jong Un. Or hell even Xi Jinping, who is becoming one of the most powerful man in then world. I mean, those are very important differences. Yet, Putin and Xi are statesmen, with life experiences political experience and prowess, they became that kind of rulers. While, Trump is and was a reality star.

 

And very few large nations have had foreign plocies, if any, that have been more cut throat to the policies of the US goverment. To USSR, Russia, various communist countries, socialist countries, the middle east... The US goverment has installed a lot of regimes that have commited genocides and were one of the most cruelest dictators. They did that in Latin America, they did that in Middle East. The thing is, nobody is denying that even anymore. But it's just somehow "there", like it didn't actually matter. When people outside of the US, think about "America" they think about hipocrisy. That's the association that people have had for almost 20 years before Trump.

 

"That shouldn't be our goal. We have no reason for that to be our goal. And when you side with dictators, you don't side with the people anyway...you side with their oppressors. "

 

I'm kinda confused by this, since I see that you get it, and you are not wrong in both claims.But you are mmixing different things.

 

And Gen, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying all of this like I have been, because I clearly remember you saying months ago, when there were simillar discussions that you "don't pretend that you know much about these things". Yet you sound like you have deadset opinions on something that you've said you don't know much about , so I don't think that's really good in matters like these. I think it should be handled more critical and analytical.

 

And like, a president can't just pay another president to act like something... That's just not how foreign relations and international politics in general work. He can't be "his in guy". This whole terminology about their "collusion", relationship or whatever, just baffles me. Yet these are the strongest narratives. And that is very, very dangerous.

 

It shouldn't have even gotten to this stage, Trump should have been impeached, I don't even know how long ago now. But then, what if he was. What if neocons won and got a war with Russia, finally changing the Putin regime? That would have been WW3.

 

Well I was with you on most of that Russia/Putin stuff but then you lost me on the socialist stuff. You really couldn't be more wrong tbh. And the only way socialism can stand on any legs (and that's barely) is if they introduce capitalism to help it function efficiently. Because human nature desires compensation for hard work and if someone is more skilled or works harder than most he wants to be compensated for that time and effort. That's not what will happen in socialism. This collectivism mentality is nonsense. Humans don't want to be treated equal to everyone else. They want to strive to be better. You'll lose innovation and initiative. It's associated with failure for a reason. No reason to put quotes around failure. It is just that. Now we just need to get rid of cronyism which is easier said than done and let the free market flourish.

 

Also I am curious to know where you live. Are you in the US?

[AONO.]

Eh... you've said time and time again, you are not changing your mind baout anything. But for some reason you've responded, so I guess we are going there again....

 

Well again, you are only disagreeing on pure ideological standpoint, with no real arguments. You are just saying "nonsense" and it "can't work", and I've already talked about that.

 

Of course there is personal growth and competition in socialism. Again, you are confusing it with communism of the 20th century. And you say "collectivism", like you mean to say unified thought.... where, you couldn't be more wrong in that one. SAgain, let's take an example of Scandinavian countries, which are 80-90% socialist. They are doing really great in techonological growth and econmic.

 

"Because human nature desires compensation for hard work and if someone is more skilled or works harder than most he wants to be compensated for that time and effort. That's not what will happen in socialism. This collectivism mentality is nonsense. Humans don't want to be treated equal to everyone else. They want to strive to be better. You'll lose innovation and initiative"

 

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. I hear a lot about "human nature" in discussions like this, but, seriously YOU can really explain human nature? Or anyone actually, like... certified, prooven human nature? Humans probably still have some of their instincts that have carried over through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution sure, but that's it. I mean... there is so much about this, but people denote it to "human nature". Yeah, no...

 

And humans "don't want to be treated equal? Like humans in general? Then I'm sure a huge percent of the population are not humans? What are you even talking about? People...humans... don't want equality? Really?

 

There is also no reason why would inovation and initiative be lost. As you've said, humans always want to do better, and I'm sure I would really like to think more progressive if I have all the basic human neccessities... as food, health, good enviroment... and not having to fight my way to some imaginary top of the food chain, surviving every day, not living.

 

I'm really not that ideologocally "radicaly left" or whatever, either. But as I've said before, people dismiss it, just because of their ideological reasoning and uneducation. And go nuts when you even mention it.

 

And please if you want to continue this conversation, don't ask me to exaplain stuff or give you "proof" if you are not oing to do the same for you arguments. Because we have already been there, and that's not the conversation I want to have.

 

[WNX]

I can't help but read this and pretty much see "We can't have equality, because humanity don't want it" and I know it's not nearly that simple

[Bdon]

Eh... you've said time and time again, you are not changing your mind baout anything. But for some reason you've responded, so I guess we are going there again....

 

Well again, you are only disagreeing on pure ideological standpoint, with no real arguments. You are just saying "nonsense" and it "can't work", and I've already talked about that.

 

Of course there is personal growth and competition in socialism. Again, you are confusing it with communism of the 20th century. And you say "collectivism", like you mean to say unified thought.... where, you couldn't be more wrong in that one. SAgain, let's take an example of Scandinavian countries, which are 80-90% socialist. They are doing really great in techonological growth and econmic.

 

"Because human nature desires compensation for hard work and if someone is more skilled or works harder than most he wants to be compensated for that time and effort. That's not what will happen in socialism. This collectivism mentality is nonsense. Humans don't want to be treated equal to everyone else. They want to strive to be better. You'll lose innovation and initiative"

 

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. I hear a lot about "human nature" in discussions like this, but, seriously YOU can really explain human nature? Or anyone actually, like... certified, prooven human nature? Humans probably still have some of their instincts that have carried over through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution sure, but that's it. I mean... there is so much about this, but people denote it to "human nature". Yeah, no...

 

And humans "don't want to be treated equal? Like humans in general? Then I'm sure a huge percent of the population are not humans? What are you even talking about? People...humans... don't want equality? Really?

 

There is also no reason why would inovation and initiative be lost. As you've said, humans always want to do better, and I'm sure I would really like to think more progressive if I have all the basic human neccessities... as food, health, good enviroment... and not having to fight my way to some imaginary top of the food chain, surviving every day, not living.

 

I'm really not that ideologocally "radicaly left" or whatever, either. But as I've said before, people dismiss it, just because of their ideological reasoning and uneducation. And go nuts when you even mention it.

 

And please if you want to continue this conversation, don't ask me to exaplain stuff or give you "proof" if you are not oing to do the same for you arguments. Because we have already been there, and that's not the conversation I want to have.

 

I hear Scandinavia brought up in these arguments quite often and we probably have Bernie to thank for that. You need to understand that a heavy welfare state and social democracy is not the same thing. It is a heavy taxation and spending within a capitalist economy. It is not socialist. The means of production are still primarily owned by private individuals. What you are saying is socialism but it isn't real socialism. Granted what you are promoting is a heavy burden on an economy and must also be treated serious. But you are mixing the two. If you are in fact in favor of actual socialism then we can discuss the fallacy of that as well. But understand what you are talking about. You are still going to be riding off the success of capitalism. It isn't perfect but it is the best option. Scandinavia actually embraces Free market capitalism but the big issue is it exists with a large welfare state. I'm not saying you are but if a person generally hates capitalism then you probably don't want to use an example like Scandinavia. Just an FYI.

 

And yes human nature plays a big role. And when it comes to working or accomplishing anything, we don't want to be equal. We want to be the best. We don't want to be treated unfairly but to say that everyone will be ok with working on the same level is ludicrous. And yes when you are talking real socialism that's how it will be. It can't be a one size fits all. Socialism does not work that way. It does not promote innovation.

 

You talk about uneducation but are you really sure you know what you're dealing with? You need to lay off the socialism stuff until then. And I'm not trying to be shitty. But I feel like I'm being treated like I have no knowledge of this shit but no matter what is said it's not good enough. Look the shit up for yourself and look for facts. You obviously won't take it from me at this point anyway. But you are getting shit way mixed up if you're trying to use the Nordic model as an argument. This is why Bernie is full of shit. I don't agree with the policies Bernie preaches (and doesn't practice) but that can actually still be a discussion. No one should even be entertaining the idea of actual socialism or communism in this day and age. And it's because of misinformation, misunderstanding, and stupidity (mostly) that we're still talking about that shit in 2018.

[AONO.]

 

I hear Scandinavia brought up in these arguments quite often and we probably have Bernie to thank for that. You need to understand that a heavy welfare state and social democracy is not the same thing. It is a heavy taxation and spending within a capitalist economy. It is not socialist. The means of production are still primarily owned by private individuals. What you are saying is socialism but it isn't real socialism. Granted what you are promoting is a heavy burden on an economy and must also be treated serious. But you are mixing the two. If you are in fact in favor of actual socialism then we can discuss the fallacy of that as well. But understand what you are talking about. You are still going to be riding off the success of capitalism. It isn't perfect but it is the best option. Scandinavia actually embraces Free market capitalism but the big issue is it exists with a large welfare state. I'm not saying you are but if a person generally hates capitalism then you probably don't want to use an example like Scandinavia. Just an FYI.

 

 

And yes human nature plays a big role. And when it comes to working or accomplishing anything, we don't want to be equal. We want to be the best. We don't want to be treated unfairly but to say that everyone will be ok with working on the same level is ludicrous. And yes when you are talking real socialism that's how it will be. It can't be a one size fits all. Socialism does not work that way. It does not promote innovation.

 

You talk about uneducation but are you really sure you know what you're dealing with? You need to lay off the socialism stuff until then. And I'm not trying to be shitty. But I feel like I'm being treated like I have no knowledge of this shit but no matter what is said it's not good enough. Look the shit up for yourself and look for facts. You obviously won't take it from me at this point anyway. But you are getting shit way mixed up if you're trying to use the Nordic model as an argument. This is why Bernie is full of shit. I don't agree with the policies Bernie preaches (and doesn't practice) but that can actually still be a discussion. No one should even be entertaining the idea of actual socialism or communism in this day and age. And it's because of misinformation, misunderstanding, and stupidity (mostly) that we're still talking about that shit in 2018.

 

 

Oh I definetly agree with what you said about Scandinavia. And that's what I am actually saying. And I don't care how many times Bernie used it as an example really.

 

And it's hard to get what you actually do or do not know when a lot of times you are actually writting nonsense in just short concrete sentences that sounds like you are missinformed. So I guess I apologise for that.

 

Like... I can respect this post to a degree but it's ver very different than you were saying earler of months before.

 

But you are also mixing up stuff. Those are socialist policies, "free education", "free healthcare". The last time we discussed it you had a completely agressive tone and dismissed it as pure socialism, almost communism.

 

And you are still mixing political terminology with your ideological beliefs.

[Bdon]

Well those programs are socialist. And they are a big problem. That's why I don't like them or agree with them. It comes with a heavy tax burden that I'm not ok with.

 

The only way these programs can exist is in a small capacity in conjunction with capitalism. What you are asking for is just a more burdened version of what we have now. Something America will not be able to withstand. Our schools and healthcare system is already in shambles because of our inability to use tax dollars properly. Heavy tax burden and further social programs are not the answer. No matter how much level of socialism you are for it will always come at the expense of someone else's money.

 

I wasn't mixing anything up though. People just need to understand the difference between social democracy and full on socialism. One is much worse but neither is particularly good.

 

For real though. Why haven't you answered where your from? What's the deal with that? Is it a problem asking?