U.S. Politics Discussion

[Bdon]

You're still just trying to justify your opinion. I always found it funny that people can be charged for double murder when a woman is pregnant and no one bats an eye but when the woman kills her own baby it's "her choice". "It wasn't an actual baby". It's always about convenience for some people. And they'll twist whatever they can to make it fit their opinion or in this case, help them sleep easier at night.

[M3J]

https://www.azcentral.com/picture-gallery/news/politics/immigration/2014/06/18/first-glimpse-of-immigrant-children-at-holding-facility/10808687/

 

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/National-Shame-US-Immigration-Activist-Calls-out-ICEs-Losing-Track-of-1500-Migrant-Children--20180527-0010.html

 

 

So not only are migrant kids and kids of migrants, legal or otherwise, being held in cages and being abused by the agents, but ICE apparently lost at least 1,475 children, with reports saying ICE gave some of them to human traffickers. The ICE are trash, Trump is a piece of shit, and people who support either are evil (actually, I have worse words in mind, but Ernez says no). Even worse, I haven't seen any so-called "pro-lifers" bringing this up, which further proves just how full of shit they are.

 

People who attack Trump but say nothing about Obama are just as bad too, given all this has happened under Obama's watch as well.

[El Imperio]

 

 

1. They're not babies, they're fetuses.

2. Are they protesting ICE giving migrant kids/kids of migrants away to human traffickers or are they ignoring that?

3. It's been proven that "pro-life" people aren't pro-life. After the fetuses are born, most of the anti-abortionists, if not all, will not give a shit what happens to them.

4. Willing to bet these anti-abortionists are against welfare for families with kids.

5. I'll bet you most of these anti-abortionists would shut up immediately if they were required to pay to take care of unwanted babies or had to take in unwanted babies, or if their taxes went towards these unwanted babies.

6. You'd prefer women let unwanted babies die, become abusive as they raise the unwanted babies, or be thrown in foster homes or adoption centers where they won't be loved or likely even treated that well?

1. No they're babies. The word fetus just helps you sleep at night.

 

2. Why are we talking about immigrants? Don't try to combine issues to prove a point. You're doing a poor job at it and its not helping.

 

3. Considering Christians give more to charity than any other group, your third point is simply wrong. I'm sure these "pro-lifers" have given more of their time and money to "welfare families" than you have.

 

4. See point #3

 

5. See point #3

 

6. "unwanted babies"? Do you know how sick that sounds? What kind of person has a child and than doesn't "want" them.

 

1.- It's a fetus. A fetus is the name given to the product from the 8th week until birth. In general terms, a baby is a born individual from age 0 to 2 years old (I mean baby isn't really a scientific term)

 

2.-X

 

3.- You are implying that all anti abortionist are Christian and that all Christians are anti abortion. You are also implying that all Christians do donations. Really piss poor argument all around. Also, I could argue that the bill gate foundation, which is pro choice, has donated more than most anti abortionist.

 

4 and 5.-...

 

6.- Nice way of avoiding the argument.

 

I like the abortion topic because it shows that the right is as, if not more, emotional as the left

 

The only side that's right is the side that lets women have control over their bodies, that's it. In fact, the republicans should be pro-choice as they hate government and government interference so much.

 

Nah, it should be the mom's decision. she can talk it over with the father, but it's ultimately her decision. Her body, she's the one who has to give birth and risk dangers, so it should be her decision.

Disgusting

Holy shit bois, another great post by bGod

 

 

 

 

The only side that's right is the side that lets women have control over their bodies, that's it. In fact, the republicans should be pro-choice as they hate government and government interference so much.

 

Nah, it should be the mom's decision. she can talk it over with the father, but it's ultimately her decision. Her body, she's the one who has to give birth and risk dangers, so it should be her decision.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree I see it as murder nothing but legalize murder you're taking another life for no reason just because you don't want it you don't want kids don't have sex

 

Abortion should only be used as an extreme cases and that's rape and incest other than that no you made the choice you have to live with it

A fetus isn't a life though. And how is abortion any worse than unwanted babies growing up in an abusive household because the mom didn't want it, or the moms abandoning their babies to die?

 

That's a dumb solution. People should be allowed to have sex and not have kids if they don't want. Even protections aren't 100% effective. If most people made the choice to have kids, then there'd be no abortion. If anything, if anti-abortionists are so "pro-life," then they should help pay to take care of unwanted children or adopt them.

 

Lemme point out the hypocrisy of gun maniacs. They insist on there being no point to banning guns because people will buy it illegally, so why be so hellbent on banning abortions and taking away women's right to their own bodies? All banning abortion does is force women to get abortions illegally and unsafely, as it always has for decades, if not centuries. Why is it that banning guns won't solve anything, but illegalizing abortion will somehow magically stop abortions?

 

OR what about health issues? Ireland's repeal of the 8th was because a woman needed an abortion to save her life, but she couldn't get it and passed away as a result.

 

The only side that's right is the side that lets women have control over their bodies, that's it. In fact, the republicans should be pro-choice as they hate government and government interference so much.

 

Nah, it should be the mom's decision. she can talk it over with the father, but it's ultimately her decision. Her body, she's the one who has to give birth and risk dangers, so it should be her decision.

Disgusting

ironic.

What's the statistics on unwanted babies ended up in abusive homes what's your sources on this

 

What's your definition as life then what makes a fetus into a human in your mind

 

And taxpayers do pay for unwanted children we also pay for in some states abortion if you want an abortion I shouldn't have to pay for it

If drivers want functional roads for their roads, why should walkers pay for them with their taxes?

[nWo_Kevin]

 

1. No they're babies. The word fetus just helps you sleep at night.

 

2. Why are we talking about immigrants? Don't try to combine issues to prove a point. You're doing a poor job at it and its not helping.

 

3. Considering Christians give more to charity than any other group, your third point is simply wrong. I'm sure these "pro-lifers" have given more of their time and money to "welfare families" than you have.

 

4. See point #3

 

5. See point #3

 

6. "unwanted babies"? Do you know how sick that sounds? What kind of person has a child and than doesn't "want" them.

1.- It's a fetus. A fetus is the name given to the product from the 8th week until birth. In general terms, a baby is a born individual from age 0 to 2 years old (I mean baby isn't really a scientific term)

 

2.-X

 

3.- You are implying that all anti abortionist are Christian and that all Christians are anti abortion. You are also implying that all Christians do donations. Really piss poor argument all around. Also, I could argue that the bill gate foundation, which is pro choice, has donated more than most anti abortionist.

 

4 and 5.-...

 

6.- Nice way of avoiding the argument.

 

I like the abortion topic because it shows that the right is as, if not more, emotional as the left

 

Alright so let me ask you, at what point would you make abortion illegal, what week? Or do you believe it would be ok to abort a "fetus" a few weeks before its due? Honest question.

 

I'm not implying anything. Of course not all pro-life people are Christian or that all Christians are pro-life. However the majority of pro-life people are Christian and the argument that pro-life people don't care about life after birth is not only silly, its flat out statistically wrong.

 

Speaking of avoiding, I like how you didn't include my paragraph after. So I'll ask you the same question. Because I find the argument that we should just abort any baby that is unwanted or will be born into a bad situation to be not only sad but scary.

 

 

-----

 

Side question: Why are you so scared of Bdon? For once you come on here and actually contribute to a conversation....except for him. Instead you flame bait again like a little child. Does he intimidate you that much?

[Ernez]

Legit, not even 5 post up I said to watch it...come on guys...damn...

[Bdon]

I would also like to know the point of which you would make it illegal. When is it considered murder to those defending it? Because as I said, if a woman is killed and is pregnant, you will most likely be charged for double homicide. What proof do you have that it's not a living person and beyond what week? Does that baby not have rights before a certain time? My guess is it can't or won't be answered because deep down everyone knows how screwed up it is.

[AONO.]

I swear M3J makes the dumbest arguments.

 

I'm not claiming thatit can measured, but Bdon you are just completely dismissing that it can even be argued.

 

Most doctors in legit hospitals will have a problem with aborting advanced pregnancy. Not only because of moral reasons, but it could be hazardous to patients health. It's not like it's being done, in majority, in the 6th month. Or even 4th.

 

Besides, don't dismiss the fact that doing it can have severe impact on womans health or to even have babies again.

 

Also, IT IS a womens choice. And nobody at this day and age should tell her what to do with it. I would be very happy if there ever wasn't a need for abortion. But we live in a world in which we live in.

 

I'm not even gonna mention rape and sexul abuse, because that should be a very clear case.

 

You can invest time and resources in education, prevention, but making it illegal is not right in our time.

 

You can be disgusted by it, but respect the choice.

 

I was devastated when I learned my mother had an abortion. And it was a mutual decision with my father who is also catholic. And it was a right decision.

 

I can also respect the view of sancity of life, but making it a simple problem, and dismissing the complexity of choice and womenns body is also really screwed up. Anf I'm hpibg deep down you know that also. Because yeah, havinh an abortion is a *censored*ed up thing.

[Bdon]

I swear M3J makes the dumbest arguments.

 

I'm not claiming thatit can measured, but Bdon you are just completely dismissing that it can even be argued.

 

Most doctors in legit hospitals will have a problem with aborting advanced pregnancy. Not only because of moral reasons, but it could be hazardous to patients health. It's not like it's being done, in majority, in the 6th month. Or even 4th.

 

Besides, don't dismiss the fact that doing it can have severe impact on womans health or to even have babies again.

 

Also, IT IS a womens choice. And nobody at this day and age should tell her what to do with it. I would be very happy if there ever wasn't a need for abortion. But we live in a world in which we live in.

 

I'm not even gonna mention rape and sexul abuse, because that should be a very clear case.

 

You can invest time and resources in education, prevention, but making it illegal is not right in our time.

 

You can be disgusted by it, but respect the choice.

 

I was devastated when I learned my mother had an abortion. And it was a mutual decision with my father who is also catholic. And it was a right decision.

 

I can also respect the view of sancity of life, but making it a simple problem, and dismissing the complexity of choice and womenns body is also really screwed up. Anf I'm hpibg deep down you know that also. Because yeah, havinh an abortion is a *censored*ed up thing.

I haven't dismissed it like can't be argued. I'm more just talking about people like M3J that can't form a good argument to save his life. I would completely understand if it were a case of rape or incest. I can also recognize when it could be a danger to the mother. In many cases if the baby were far enough along the woman would probably choose the baby over her to be honest.

 

So if the father wants the baby, it would still be up to her? She just decides, nah, and he has to deal with it? Again at what point is it murder? Health issues aside. What point? That's all I'm asking. I can understand within a few weeks and after rape or incest but lets not pretend like they aren't developing into a human being within the first few weeks. For a circumstance where it was just shit birth control measures, that baby didn't ask to be conceived and now he or she doesn't get the choice to live. I understand because the responsibility is scary when you are young but it's a very immature way to look at it.

 

Also I don't have to respect the choice, sorry. I won't do anything about it because it's not my life but let's not pretend here. There is no respect there. It does depend on the situation though so don't assume that I'm just against it 100%. My biggest problem is just those that don't want to admit that it's not a human being. It's such a screwed up thing when a mother can abort a kid and be defended by those that say its not a real baby but then would want a double murder charge on a man killing a pregnant woman. There is a level of hypocrisy there that shouldn't be ignored.

 

This has always been about when is and isn't the right time for me. Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

 

[Mango kid]

And no one's even talking about the post abortion trauma that a lot of women get afterwards

[M3J]

I swear M3J makes the dumbest arguments.

 

I'm not claiming thatit can measured, but Bdon you are just completely dismissing that it can even be argued.

 

Most doctors in legit hospitals will have a problem with aborting advanced pregnancy. Not only because of moral reasons, but it could be hazardous to patients health. It's not like it's being done, in majority, in the 6th month. Or even 4th.

 

Besides, don't dismiss the fact that doing it can have severe impact on womans health or to even have babies again.

 

Also, IT IS a womens choice. And nobody at this day and age should tell her what to do with it. I would be very happy if there ever wasn't a need for abortion. But we live in a world in which we live in.

 

I'm not even gonna mention rape and sexul abuse, because that should be a very clear case.

 

You can invest time and resources in education, prevention, but making it illegal is not right in our time.

 

You can be disgusted by it, but respect the choice.

 

I was devastated when I learned my mother had an abortion. And it was a mutual decision with my father who is also catholic. And it was a right decision.

 

I can also respect the view of sancity of life, but making it a simple problem, and dismissing the complexity of choice and womenns body is also really screwed up. Anf I'm hpibg deep down you know that also. Because yeah, havinh an abortion is a *censored*ed up thing.

I can't be assed to argue about women's rights to people who likely don't give a shit about those fetuses after they're born and wouldn't care if they died. I've yet to see any good argument as to why we should take away women's right to choose what to do with their bodies, other than assumptions and silliness like "if she chose to have sex then she should live with the consequences!"

 

Most of the anti-abortionists' arguments tend to be hypocritical, and I've seen enough of them argue that there's just no point. Plus, we've had abortions for centuries, it's not even a recent thing. Organizations like Planned Parenthood (which certain groups want to defund and get rid of) can actually reduce abortions by helping to prevent pregnancies in the first place.

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/when-did-abortion-begin-721090

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/legal/history_1.shtml

[AONO.]

I haven't dismissed it like can't be argued. I'm more just talking about people like M3J that can't form a good argument to save his life. I would completely understand if it were a case of rape or incest. I can also recognize when it could be a danger to the mother. In many cases if the baby were far enough along the woman would probably choose the baby over her to be honest.

 

So if the father wants the baby, it would still be up to her? She just decides, nah, and he has to deal with it? Again at what point is it murder? Health issues aside. What point? That's all I'm asking. I can understand within a few weeks and after rape or incest but lets not pretend like they aren't developing into a human being within the first few weeks. For a circumstance where it was just shit birth control measures, that baby didn't ask to be conceived and now he or she doesn't get the choice to live. I understand because the responsibility is scary when you are young but it's a very immature way to look at it.

 

Also I don't have to respect the choice, sorry. I won't do anything about it because it's not my life but let's not pretend here. There is no respect there. It does depend on the situation though so don't assume that I'm just against it 100%. My biggest problem is just those that don't want to admit that it's not a human being. It's such a screwed up thing when a mother can abort a kid and be defended by those that say its not a real baby but then would want a double murder charge on a man killing a pregnant woman. There is a level of hypocrisy there that shouldn't be ignored.

 

This has always been about when is and isn't the right time for me. Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

@M3J

We talk about simillar stuff, but I don't get your constant aggressive tone.

 

@Bdon

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge. You can't just push the argument to the other side and let them handle it, and make it like it's just right. But we can try to find better sollutions than what we have now. And making abortion illegal is not good for anyone.

 

I'm sorry, but your posts made it seem like you are against it 100%. But don't let people like M3J get to you like that. Why would they? You said how you are angry about "those" people. That just sidetracks you from thinking how to solve the problem. Then the whole issue gets distorted, and there is just noise from various sides just fighting eachother. I think you are capable of seeing the issue about it. Just a personal note. Because through dialog solutions can be reached.

 

Also, as I said before. We really yet don't have the capabilitty of understanding when exactly life begins and what does it mean for us. Theyhave tried to proove scientificly on when a baby or fetus could develop a conscience. But it's still very delicate. As I said, at this moment we can't make that clear cut distinction, but we can between, 1 month and 6 months, or four. People are working on that. So a solution can't be just make it illegal because we believe it is, and with that create big problems in society.

 

That's why I wrote that in the second paragraph. You sound agressive against people like that, and the idea of it, but it doesn't seem like you understand the issue of it. Then you question ideas inside of ideas. And you go either contradicting yourself, or againt go into the questions that can't be answered like you want them to be, since it's not a clear cut issue. And I don't think you do that on purpose. Hopefully.

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

[M3J]

Aggressiveness is in part due to having to deal with other people who refuse to understand and are such hypocrites, and people like bdon, as seen in this dumb quote:

 

 

 

Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

Like, I really don't understand how being pro-choice would make me or some others feel better when some of us don't even like abortion in the first place. And from my experience, people like bdon who say "it's because of someone else like M3J or sensitive left cucks!" are generally trying to deflect blame and look better for their views/decisions.

 

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Goddammit, why is it hard for the forum to work properly?

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Here's another example of why I'm aggressive to people like bdon and many other right wingers. bdon says he doesn't have to respect choices when it comes to abortion, but he's extremely quick to react and get mad when people want stricter gun control laws after mass shootings and tragedies and refuse to listen to gun obsessed people's flimsy arguments. Why should we have to respect their choices to buy hundreds of guns without thorough background check but they don't have to respect our choices of being pro-choice? Double standards.

I've had enough arguments with a lot of right wingers that I'm aggressive to most in general if I detect any aggressiveness or rudeness from them.

[nWo_Kevin]

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge.

I think part of the issue with "what a woman decides to do with her body" is that at some point that body no longer becomes just hers.

 

For example in the 3rd week, the child's heart begins to beat. By Week 5 the eyes, legs and hands begin to develop. Week 6 fingernails are beginning to form. By Week 8 the baby can begin to hear. Week 10 the baby can hiccup, frown and turn their head.

 

Those are things we have knowledge of. At some point there becomes another human being inside her. At some point it becomes more than just a "Fetus" or "Cluster of Cells". And at some point that woman's body is not just hers.

[Generations]

Knew it was inevitable that he was going to say some whack shit today...but I just saw what Trump tweeted for memorial day; Saying that the soldiers who died would be happy to see that America is great again, or whatever his exact words were.

 

Man is such a self-important anus. Why is it so hard for him to respect any single thing without making it a pissing contest about how well he thinks he's running the country?

[M3J]

I honestly didn't see what's so bad about that. It's not like he said "the soldiers would be proud of me and what I did for this country!"

[Generations]

I honestly didn't see what's so bad about that. It's not like he said "the soldiers would be proud of me and what I did for this country!"

Don't know if you're being serious. But, yeah...that's pretty much what he said. Also, really off-putting to suggest that any of those guys should be happy about sacrificing their lives to begin with. He doesn't get to decide how proud they should or shouldn't be of the current US government. That's bullshit.

[AONO.]

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge.

I think part of the issue with "what a woman decides to do with her body" is that at some point that body no longer becomes just hers.

 

For example in the 3rd week, the child's heart begins to beat. By Week 5 the eyes, legs and hands begin to develop. Week 6 fingernails are beginning to form. By Week 8 the baby can begin to hear. Week 10 the baby can hiccup, frown and turn their head.

 

Those are things we have knowledge of. At some point there becomes another human being inside her. At some point it becomes more than just a "Fetus" or "Cluster of Cells". And at some point that woman's body is not just hers.

 

 

I'm not that sure I got your point? Out of everything you just asid something about a womans choice. Continuing the argument for the sake of argument?

 

You are completely turning it around. I never said it was just a cluster of cells. You even missed the biggest point for your argument. When does the babys brain begin to develop? In the last trimester. I was also talking about conscience.

 

And at what point is that?

 

At what point do you get to decide for other person on what to do with her body? And do you get to decide? Or the society as a whole? Irelands referendum clearly stated what society is for.

 

Again, making it illegal is not a good sullution to anything. And yes, it's backwards thinking. And I don't mean to insult. In many countries there are restriction on when can it be done. For a reason.

 

I have avoided the moral debate for a reason, and you just picked that one argument out of many. And I already wrote an extensive post and I don't plan on going about it again.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm also confused. Guns are a given right, and people want to preserve it and potentially kill people (in self defence), and also it's a way to perserve personal freedoms (which I can respect) people want to restrict a womans choice claiming abortion is murder and take that part of freedom away. OK. But a right to recieve healthcare and saving a life is a retarded ideology? I can even put capital punishment in there also.

 

I'm just having a problem with people not trying to think for themselves, because that's freedom. And sticking to certain beliefs with no matter what, even though it contradicts with their other beliefs. Both sides here constantly get mad at hypocrisy and just tend to make noise and say whatever just to somehow contradict the other side no matter how ridicolous it may sound. Yet can't make out the hypocrisy of their own. And actually practice their freedom to think.

[Bdon]

 

I haven't dismissed it like can't be argued. I'm more just talking about people like M3J that can't form a good argument to save his life. I would completely understand if it were a case of rape or incest. I can also recognize when it could be a danger to the mother. In many cases if the baby were far enough along the woman would probably choose the baby over her to be honest.

 

So if the father wants the baby, it would still be up to her? She just decides, nah, and he has to deal with it? Again at what point is it murder? Health issues aside. What point? That's all I'm asking. I can understand within a few weeks and after rape or incest but lets not pretend like they aren't developing into a human being within the first few weeks. For a circumstance where it was just shit birth control measures, that baby didn't ask to be conceived and now he or she doesn't get the choice to live. I understand because the responsibility is scary when you are young but it's a very immature way to look at it.

 

Also I don't have to respect the choice, sorry. I won't do anything about it because it's not my life but let's not pretend here. There is no respect there. It does depend on the situation though so don't assume that I'm just against it 100%. My biggest problem is just those that don't want to admit that it's not a human being. It's such a screwed up thing when a mother can abort a kid and be defended by those that say its not a real baby but then would want a double murder charge on a man killing a pregnant woman. There is a level of hypocrisy there that shouldn't be ignored.

 

This has always been about when is and isn't the right time for me. Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

@M3J

We talk about simillar stuff, but I don't get your constant aggressive tone.

 

@Bdon

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge. You can't just push the argument to the other side and let them handle it, and make it like it's just right. But we can try to find better sollutions than what we have now. And making abortion illegal is not good for anyone.

 

I'm sorry, but your posts made it seem like you are against it 100%. But don't let people like M3J get to you like that. Why would they? You said how you are angry about "those" people. That just sidetracks you from thinking how to solve the problem. Then the whole issue gets distorted, and there is just noise from various sides just fighting eachother. I think you are capable of seeing the issue about it. Just a personal note. Because through dialog solutions can be reached.

 

Also, as I said before. We really yet don't have the capabilitty of understanding when exactly life begins and what does it mean for us. Theyhave tried to proove scientificly on when a baby or fetus could develop a conscience. But it's still very delicate. As I said, at this moment we can't make that clear cut distinction, but we can between, 1 month and 6 months, or four. People are working on that. So a solution can't be just make it illegal because we believe it is, and with that create big problems in society.

 

That's why I wrote that in the second paragraph. You sound agressive against people like that, and the idea of it, but it doesn't seem like you understand the issue of it. Then you question ideas inside of ideas. And you go either contradicting yourself, or againt go into the questions that can't be answered like you want them to be, since it's not a clear cut issue. And I don't think you do that on purpose. Hopefully.

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

 

Well I understand the issue just fine. We just have two different opinions. But I never said or implied that it was up to me nor did I say we should ban it. And they have determined when babies start developing and at what weeks. I believe Kevin brought it up even. No one here has said that a woman can't do what she will with her body, but you're blurring a line here. There comes a point at which it should be considered murder and because they mask it with the whole "it's her body" thing, it makes it more complicated. Of course there are exceptions, but if a woman can't be charged for murder at a certain point then why should a man get charged for double murder?

 

And I'm not really all that aggressive here but it is disgusting when people don't call them for what they are and that's humans. There's politicians that believe there are no rights of a child at any point before they're born. Pretty sick wouldn't you say?

 

And in the definition of respect, no, I don't have to respect those choices. However I already mentioned that it isn't my life and I'm not going to stop it because I believe in freedom of choice. Doesn't mean I can't express my concerns or disgusts of the subject.

 

 

Aggressiveness is in part due to having to deal with other people who refuse to understand and are such hypocrites, and people like bdon, as seen in this dumb quote:

 

 

 

Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

Like, I really don't understand how being pro-choice would make me or some others feel better when some of us don't even like abortion in the first place. And from my experience, people like bdon who say "it's because of someone else like M3J or sensitive left cucks!" are generally trying to deflect blame and look better for their views/decisions.

 

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Goddammit, why is it hard for the forum to work properly?

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Here's another example of why I'm aggressive to people like bdon and many other right wingers. bdon says he doesn't have to respect choices when it comes to abortion, but he's extremely quick to react and get mad when people want stricter gun control laws after mass shootings and tragedies and refuse to listen to gun obsessed people's flimsy arguments. Why should we have to respect their choices to buy hundreds of guns without thorough background check but they don't have to respect our choices of being pro-choice? Double standards.

I've had enough arguments with a lot of right wingers that I'm aggressive to most in general if I detect any aggressiveness or rudeness from them.

 

You still think I'm a right winger? lol. You don't have to respect anything. But you won't and can't change the right that says I can have them and you shouldn't. You can disagree all you want but you can't interfere. I'm not here to interfere in women's rights with their body. I started in this because you said some stupid shit in the first place.

 

I'd also like to here these "flimsy arguments" you speak of. Care to enlighten me?

 

By the way I know you see irony here because of my opinions of abortion and your opinions on gun deaths and gun control but it works both ways, fyi. Funny how you chastise those over women's choice and use the excuse that they aren't babies and that we don't care about them afterwards (just to help you feel good about your argument) but push for severe gun control. You want to save just one life and are willing to give up other's freedoms for that when it comes to guns but on the abortion side you can't even call them babies. You act like they aren't living. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

 

 

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge.

I think part of the issue with "what a woman decides to do with her body" is that at some point that body no longer becomes just hers.

 

For example in the 3rd week, the child's heart begins to beat. By Week 5 the eyes, legs and hands begin to develop. Week 6 fingernails are beginning to form. By Week 8 the baby can begin to hear. Week 10 the baby can hiccup, frown and turn their head.

 

Those are things we have knowledge of. At some point there becomes another human being inside her. At some point it becomes more than just a "Fetus" or "Cluster of Cells". And at some point that woman's body is not just hers.

 

 

I'm not that sure I got your point? Out of everything you just asid something about a womans choice. Continuing the argument for the sake of argument?

 

You are completely turning it around. I never said it was just a cluster of cells. You even missed the biggest point for your argument. When does the babys brain begin to develop? In the last trimester. I was also talking about conscience.

 

And at what point is that?

 

At what point do you get to decide for other person on what to do with her body? And do you get to decide? Or the society as a whole? Irelands referendum clearly stated what society is for.

 

Again, making it illegal is not a good sullution to anything. And yes, it's backwards thinking. And I don't mean to insult. In many countries there are restriction on when can it be done. For a reason.

 

I have avoided the moral debate for a reason, and you just picked that one argument out of many. And I already wrote an extensive post and I don't plan on going about it again.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm also confused. Guns are a given right, and people want to preserve it and potentially kill people (in self defence), and also it's a way to perserve personal freedoms (which I can respect) people want to restrict a womans choice claiming abortion is murder and take that part of freedom away. OK. But a right to recieve healthcare and saving a life is a retarded ideology? I can even put capital punishment in there also.

 

I'm just having a problem with people not trying to think for themselves, because that's freedom. And sticking to certain beliefs with no matter what, even though it contradicts with their other beliefs. Both sides here constantly get mad at hypocrisy and just tend to make noise and say whatever just to somehow contradict the other side no matter how ridicolous it may sound. Yet can't make out the hypocrisy of their own. And actually practice their freedom to think.

 

I would be a little careful about your wording. Gun owners don't want to kill anybody. It's just important to protect ourselves from those that mean us harm and the government. Which is why the 2nd amendment is there in the first place. Government tyranny. Just throwing that out there. The way it was worded sounds bad.

 

There is a certain time it is considered murder and should be though. That's hard to agree on I know but there is a time at the very least. Past a certain point and depending on the situation obviously, it would become less about their right and more about consequence. As Kevin pointed out, there is a point at which that body is not just hers.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole healthcare thing again right now but I have to ask what you meant by people not thinking for themselves. Are you saying we aren't or just in general?

[King RyderFan]

 

 

 

 

I haven't dismissed it like can't be argued. I'm more just talking about people like M3J that can't form a good argument to save his life. I would completely understand if it were a case of rape or incest. I can also recognize when it could be a danger to the mother. In many cases if the baby were far enough along the woman would probably choose the baby over her to be honest.

 

So if the father wants the baby, it would still be up to her? She just decides, nah, and he has to deal with it? Again at what point is it murder? Health issues aside. What point? That's all I'm asking. I can understand within a few weeks and after rape or incest but lets not pretend like they aren't developing into a human being within the first few weeks. For a circumstance where it was just shit birth control measures, that baby didn't ask to be conceived and now he or she doesn't get the choice to live. I understand because the responsibility is scary when you are young but it's a very immature way to look at it.

 

Also I don't have to respect the choice, sorry. I won't do anything about it because it's not my life but let's not pretend here. There is no respect there. It does depend on the situation though so don't assume that I'm just against it 100%. My biggest problem is just those that don't want to admit that it's not a human being. It's such a screwed up thing when a mother can abort a kid and be defended by those that say its not a real baby but then would want a double murder charge on a man killing a pregnant woman. There is a level of hypocrisy there that shouldn't be ignored.

 

This has always been about when is and isn't the right time for me. Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

@M3J

We talk about simillar stuff, but I don't get your constant aggressive tone.

 

@Bdon

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge. You can't just push the argument to the other side and let them handle it, and make it like it's just right. But we can try to find better sollutions than what we have now. And making abortion illegal is not good for anyone.

 

I'm sorry, but your posts made it seem like you are against it 100%. But don't let people like M3J get to you like that. Why would they? You said how you are angry about "those" people. That just sidetracks you from thinking how to solve the problem. Then the whole issue gets distorted, and there is just noise from various sides just fighting eachother. I think you are capable of seeing the issue about it. Just a personal note. Because through dialog solutions can be reached.

 

Also, as I said before. We really yet don't have the capabilitty of understanding when exactly life begins and what does it mean for us. Theyhave tried to proove scientificly on when a baby or fetus could develop a conscience. But it's still very delicate. As I said, at this moment we can't make that clear cut distinction, but we can between, 1 month and 6 months, or four. People are working on that. So a solution can't be just make it illegal because we believe it is, and with that create big problems in society.

 

That's why I wrote that in the second paragraph. You sound agressive against people like that, and the idea of it, but it doesn't seem like you understand the issue of it. Then you question ideas inside of ideas. And you go either contradicting yourself, or againt go into the questions that can't be answered like you want them to be, since it's not a clear cut issue. And I don't think you do that on purpose. Hopefully.

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Well I understand the issue just fine. We just have two different opinions. But I never said or implied that it was up to me nor did I say we should ban it. And they have determined when babies start developing and at what weeks. I believe Kevin brought it up even. No one here has said that a woman can't do what she will with her body, but you're blurring a line here. There comes a point at which it should be considered murder and because they mask it with the whole "it's her body" thing, it makes it more complicated. Of course there are exceptions, but if a woman can't be charged for murder at a certain point then why should a man get charged for double murder?

 

And I'm not really all that aggressive here but it is disgusting when people don't call them for what they are and that's humans. There's politicians that believe there are no rights of a child at any point before they're born. Pretty sick wouldn't you say?

 

And in the definition of respect, no, I don't have to respect those choices. However I already mentioned that it isn't my life and I'm not going to stop it because I believe in freedom of choice. Doesn't mean I can't express my concerns or disgusts of the subject.

 

Aggressiveness is in part due to having to deal with other people who refuse to understand and are such hypocrites, and people like bdon, as seen in this dumb quote:

 

 

 

Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

Like, I really don't understand how being pro-choice would make me or some others feel better when some of us don't even like abortion in the first place. And from my experience, people like bdon who say "it's because of someone else like M3J or sensitive left cucks!" are generally trying to deflect blame and look better for their views/decisions.

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Goddammit, why is it hard for the forum to work properly?

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Here's another example of why I'm aggressive to people like bdon and many other right wingers. bdon says he doesn't have to respect choices when it comes to abortion, but he's extremely quick to react and get mad when people want stricter gun control laws after mass shootings and tragedies and refuse to listen to gun obsessed people's flimsy arguments. Why should we have to respect their choices to buy hundreds of guns without thorough background check but they don't have to respect our choices of being pro-choice? Double standards.

 

I've had enough arguments with a lot of right wingers that I'm aggressive to most in general if I detect any aggressiveness or rudeness from them.

You still think I'm a right winger? lol. You don't have to respect anything. But you won't and can't change the right that says I can have them and you shouldn't. You can disagree all you want but you can't interfere. I'm not here to interfere in women's rights with their body. I started in this because you said some stupid shit in the first place.

 

I'd also like to here these "flimsy arguments" you speak of. Care to enlighten me?

 

By the way I know you see irony here because of my opinions of abortion and your opinions on gun deaths and gun control but it works both ways, fyi. Funny how you chastise those over women's choice and use the excuse that they aren't babies and that we don't care about them afterwards (just to help you feel good about your argument) but push for severe gun control. You want to save just one life and are willing to give up other's freedoms for that when it comes to guns but on the abortion side you can't even call them babies. You act like they aren't living. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

 

 

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge.

I think part of the issue with "what a woman decides to do with her body" is that at some point that body no longer becomes just hers.

 

For example in the 3rd week, the child's heart begins to beat. By Week 5 the eyes, legs and hands begin to develop. Week 6 fingernails are beginning to form. By Week 8 the baby can begin to hear. Week 10 the baby can hiccup, frown and turn their head.

 

Those are things we have knowledge of. At some point there becomes another human being inside her. At some point it becomes more than just a "Fetus" or "Cluster of Cells". And at some point that woman's body is not just hers.

I'm not that sure I got your point? Out of everything you just asid something about a womans choice. Continuing the argument for the sake of argument?

 

You are completely turning it around. I never said it was just a cluster of cells. You even missed the biggest point for your argument. When does the babys brain begin to develop? In the last trimester. I was also talking about conscience.

 

And at what point is that?

 

At what point do you get to decide for other person on what to do with her body? And do you get to decide? Or the society as a whole? Irelands referendum clearly stated what society is for.

 

Again, making it illegal is not a good sullution to anything. And yes, it's backwards thinking. And I don't mean to insult. In many countries there are restriction on when can it be done. For a reason.

 

I have avoided the moral debate for a reason, and you just picked that one argument out of many. And I already wrote an extensive post and I don't plan on going about it again.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm also confused. Guns are a given right, and people want to preserve it and potentially kill people (in self defence), and also it's a way to perserve personal freedoms (which I can respect) people want to restrict a womans choice claiming abortion is murder and take that part of freedom away. OK. But a right to recieve healthcare and saving a life is a retarded ideology? I can even put capital punishment in there also.

 

I'm just having a problem with people not trying to think for themselves, because that's freedom. And sticking to certain beliefs with no matter what, even though it contradicts with their other beliefs. Both sides here constantly get mad at hypocrisy and just tend to make noise and say whatever just to somehow contradict the other side no matter how ridicolous it may sound. Yet can't make out the hypocrisy of their own. And actually practice their freedom to think.

I would be a little careful about your wording. Gun owners don't want to kill anybody. It's just important to protect ourselves from those that mean us harm and the government. Which is why the 2nd amendment is there in the first place. Government tyranny. Just throwing that out there. The way it was worded sounds bad.

 

There is a certain time it is considered murder and should be though. That's hard to agree on I know but there is a time at the very least. Past a certain point and depending on the situation obviously, it would become less about their right and more about consequence. As Kevin pointed out, there is a point at which that body is not just hers.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole healthcare thing again right now but I have to ask what you meant by people not thinking for themselves. Are you saying we aren't or just in general?

Which is and always has been a ridiculous argument. Do you really think your guns would even stand a chance against a team of hightly trained militia? Let alone armed veichles, tanks, fighter jets and god knows what else the government is hiding. If the goverment wanted to go corrupt there isnt much you can do.

[Bdon]

 

 

 

I haven't dismissed it like can't be argued. I'm more just talking about people like M3J that can't form a good argument to save his life. I would completely understand if it were a case of rape or incest. I can also recognize when it could be a danger to the mother. In many cases if the baby were far enough along the woman would probably choose the baby over her to be honest.

 

So if the father wants the baby, it would still be up to her? She just decides, nah, and he has to deal with it? Again at what point is it murder? Health issues aside. What point? That's all I'm asking. I can understand within a few weeks and after rape or incest but lets not pretend like they aren't developing into a human being within the first few weeks. For a circumstance where it was just shit birth control measures, that baby didn't ask to be conceived and now he or she doesn't get the choice to live. I understand because the responsibility is scary when you are young but it's a very immature way to look at it.

 

Also I don't have to respect the choice, sorry. I won't do anything about it because it's not my life but let's not pretend here. There is no respect there. It does depend on the situation though so don't assume that I'm just against it 100%. My biggest problem is just those that don't want to admit that it's not a human being. It's such a screwed up thing when a mother can abort a kid and be defended by those that say its not a real baby but then would want a double murder charge on a man killing a pregnant woman. There is a level of hypocrisy there that shouldn't be ignored.

 

This has always been about when is and isn't the right time for me. Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

 

@M3J

We talk about simillar stuff, but I don't get your constant aggressive tone.

 

@Bdon

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge. You can't just push the argument to the other side and let them handle it, and make it like it's just right. But we can try to find better sollutions than what we have now. And making abortion illegal is not good for anyone.

 

I'm sorry, but your posts made it seem like you are against it 100%. But don't let people like M3J get to you like that. Why would they? You said how you are angry about "those" people. That just sidetracks you from thinking how to solve the problem. Then the whole issue gets distorted, and there is just noise from various sides just fighting eachother. I think you are capable of seeing the issue about it. Just a personal note. Because through dialog solutions can be reached.

 

Also, as I said before. We really yet don't have the capabilitty of understanding when exactly life begins and what does it mean for us. Theyhave tried to proove scientificly on when a baby or fetus could develop a conscience. But it's still very delicate. As I said, at this moment we can't make that clear cut distinction, but we can between, 1 month and 6 months, or four. People are working on that. So a solution can't be just make it illegal because we believe it is, and with that create big problems in society.

 

That's why I wrote that in the second paragraph. You sound agressive against people like that, and the idea of it, but it doesn't seem like you understand the issue of it. Then you question ideas inside of ideas. And you go either contradicting yourself, or againt go into the questions that can't be answered like you want them to be, since it's not a clear cut issue. And I don't think you do that on purpose. Hopefully.

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Well I understand the issue just fine. We just have two different opinions. But I never said or implied that it was up to me nor did I say we should ban it. And they have determined when babies start developing and at what weeks. I believe Kevin brought it up even. No one here has said that a woman can't do what she will with her body, but you're blurring a line here. There comes a point at which it should be considered murder and because they mask it with the whole "it's her body" thing, it makes it more complicated. Of course there are exceptions, but if a woman can't be charged for murder at a certain point then why should a man get charged for double murder?

 

And I'm not really all that aggressive here but it is disgusting when people don't call them for what they are and that's humans. There's politicians that believe there are no rights of a child at any point before they're born. Pretty sick wouldn't you say?

 

And in the definition of respect, no, I don't have to respect those choices. However I already mentioned that it isn't my life and I'm not going to stop it because I believe in freedom of choice. Doesn't mean I can't express my concerns or disgusts of the subject.

 

Aggressiveness is in part due to having to deal with other people who refuse to understand and are such hypocrites, and people like bdon, as seen in this dumb quote:

 

 

 

Not to mention those that just say shit like M3J and either say shit to make themselves feel better or that are just regurgitating nonsense. Making it illegal could create more issues but there needs to be a clarification on when we can call it murder or not.

Like, I really don't understand how being pro-choice would make me or some others feel better when some of us don't even like abortion in the first place. And from my experience, people like bdon who say "it's because of someone else like M3J or sensitive left cucks!" are generally trying to deflect blame and look better for their views/decisions.

 

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Goddammit, why is it hard for the forum to work properly?

 

"I don't have to respect choice"? Really, why not?

Here's another example of why I'm aggressive to people like bdon and many other right wingers. bdon says he doesn't have to respect choices when it comes to abortion, but he's extremely quick to react and get mad when people want stricter gun control laws after mass shootings and tragedies and refuse to listen to gun obsessed people's flimsy arguments. Why should we have to respect their choices to buy hundreds of guns without thorough background check but they don't have to respect our choices of being pro-choice? Double standards.

 

I've had enough arguments with a lot of right wingers that I'm aggressive to most in general if I detect any aggressiveness or rudeness from them.

You still think I'm a right winger? lol. You don't have to respect anything. But you won't and can't change the right that says I can have them and you shouldn't. You can disagree all you want but you can't interfere. I'm not here to interfere in women's rights with their body. I started in this because you said some stupid shit in the first place.

 

I'd also like to here these "flimsy arguments" you speak of. Care to enlighten me?

 

By the way I know you see irony here because of my opinions of abortion and your opinions on gun deaths and gun control but it works both ways, fyi. Funny how you chastise those over women's choice and use the excuse that they aren't babies and that we don't care about them afterwards (just to help you feel good about your argument) but push for severe gun control. You want to save just one life and are willing to give up other's freedoms for that when it comes to guns but on the abortion side you can't even call them babies. You act like they aren't living. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

 

 

It's not really up to you, is it? I don't mean to be snarky. But it simply isn't. I know you just said it as your opinion on the matter, but that's why I'm talking about morals. You don't get to decide that (I don't think you REALLY think you do), but just as that you don't get to decide that, neither you do about what a woman decides to do with her body. Like, you believe in your right to carry guns. And if there is a right for that, then I think it's pretty reasonable that it should be a right to do what thou wilt with your body. I get it, argument can't me made it's still immoral to kill a life. You were asking that. But you also earlier asked for proof on why it isn't a life. Well, what's your proof that it is? I mean, how do you decide when it's time nad when it's not? We can't. But it goes two way for now, we don't have that knowledge.

I think part of the issue with "what a woman decides to do with her body" is that at some point that body no longer becomes just hers.

 

For example in the 3rd week, the child's heart begins to beat. By Week 5 the eyes, legs and hands begin to develop. Week 6 fingernails are beginning to form. By Week 8 the baby can begin to hear. Week 10 the baby can hiccup, frown and turn their head.

 

Those are things we have knowledge of. At some point there becomes another human being inside her. At some point it becomes more than just a "Fetus" or "Cluster of Cells". And at some point that woman's body is not just hers.

I'm not that sure I got your point? Out of everything you just asid something about a womans choice. Continuing the argument for the sake of argument?

 

You are completely turning it around. I never said it was just a cluster of cells. You even missed the biggest point for your argument. When does the babys brain begin to develop? In the last trimester. I was also talking about conscience.

 

And at what point is that?

 

At what point do you get to decide for other person on what to do with her body? And do you get to decide? Or the society as a whole? Irelands referendum clearly stated what society is for.

 

Again, making it illegal is not a good sullution to anything. And yes, it's backwards thinking. And I don't mean to insult. In many countries there are restriction on when can it be done. For a reason.

 

I have avoided the moral debate for a reason, and you just picked that one argument out of many. And I already wrote an extensive post and I don't plan on going about it again.

 

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I'm also confused. Guns are a given right, and people want to preserve it and potentially kill people (in self defence), and also it's a way to perserve personal freedoms (which I can respect) people want to restrict a womans choice claiming abortion is murder and take that part of freedom away. OK. But a right to recieve healthcare and saving a life is a retarded ideology? I can even put capital punishment in there also.

 

I'm just having a problem with people not trying to think for themselves, because that's freedom. And sticking to certain beliefs with no matter what, even though it contradicts with their other beliefs. Both sides here constantly get mad at hypocrisy and just tend to make noise and say whatever just to somehow contradict the other side no matter how ridicolous it may sound. Yet can't make out the hypocrisy of their own. And actually practice their freedom to think.

I would be a little careful about your wording. Gun owners don't want to kill anybody. It's just important to protect ourselves from those that mean us harm and the government. Which is why the 2nd amendment is there in the first place. Government tyranny. Just throwing that out there. The way it was worded sounds bad.

 

There is a certain time it is considered murder and should be though. That's hard to agree on I know but there is a time at the very least. Past a certain point and depending on the situation obviously, it would become less about their right and more about consequence. As Kevin pointed out, there is a point at which that body is not just hers.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole healthcare thing again right now but I have to ask what you meant by people not thinking for themselves. Are you saying we aren't or just in general?

Which is and always has been a ridiculous argument. Do you really think your guns would even stand a chance against a team of hightly trained militia? Let alone armed veichles, tanks, fighter jets and god knows what else the government is hiding. If the goverment wanted to go corrupt there isnt much you can do.

 

You don't really understand do you. If it went down it's not going to be just a government and the military vs just civilians. That's not how that would work. Also the point of the 2nd amendment was for us to be able to have the weapons to match. We are still a standing army or militia as Americans. That is the whole point. It's not ridiculous at all if you knew anything about it.

 

And the government IS corrupt. Present tense. And there is plenty we can do. It's the difference of what we will do. The fact that you or anyone for that matter believes that shows what they are telling to keep you in your place is working. We left you guys for a reason only to have it revert right back to bending over for our overlords.

[M3J]

Basically, the right are all about freedom unless it has to do with women and their bodies or anything that disagrees with the right's views, like non-heterosexual marriage or the left criticizing something from the right.

 

And to reiterate, the right also assert banning guns won't get rid of guns, but banning abortions will stop abortions, even though abortions have existed for centuries, even when it was illegal. They are aware that women will get abortions regardless, that banning abortions just make it unsafe for women? I'm also willing to bet most of these people against abortions would actually allow their mistresses or their husbands' mistresses to get abortion. Wasn't there a case of a staunch anti-abortion republican wanting his mistress to get an abortion? And there are reports that Trump wanted Tiffany aborted as well.

 

If anti-abortionists are as pro-life as they like to pretend to be, why not focus on babies and kids that have been born? Why not ensure that foster homes actually treat the kids well, and that kids aren't abused by their parents? Open up more centers where moms can give away their unwanted children without fear rather than abandon them somewhere to die? Fund and support Planned Parenthood so there's less unwanted pregnancies that'd end in abortion?

[Mango kid]

Umm they havr this places

[M3J]

Also, Roseanne got canceled for the racist remark that Roseanne made. Sweet.

[Bdon]

Oh no what ever will we do?

[maskedmaniac]

Roseanne will probably get some sort of cabinet position in the Trump white house. I would not be surprised at this, and I'm being completely serious. Trump rally is about to start and he will most likely cry about her show being cancelled because according to him the show was about him and his followers. Prepare yourselves for US good-will ambassador Roseanne Barr people.