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Lil' Kazu

NWA Discussion Thread

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"History repeats itself" only works when the same course of action is taken. NXT is not following the course of history. WWE has never done anything like this. This isn't the WWF of the 80's or the 90's signing all the talents and then shutting down the territories. This is a developmental brand that is meant to work alongside other promotions to have a healthy cycle of talent across the board...and it works. It's proven that it works in the years since it was established. Healthy growth across the board proves that it works. New talents continuing to be created proves that it works.

 

Prime example...WWE "steals" Nakamura and AJ Styles...NJPW pushes Omega...everyone loves it. Everyone wins. It's a cycle. Believe in the cycle. Trust the cycle. If WWE had managed to "steal" Omega when they wanted, then NJPW would have pushed someone else to that spot. It all works. It always works. WWE takes from NJPW and ROH...NJPW and ROH take from the smaller feds, the smaller feds take entry level wrestlers and allow them to grow.

 

 

It's irrelevant what happens to the talent after they signed with WWE, developmental or not, that's not what the discussion is about at all. And please, NJPW is not the norm and you know it. Their success goes to show just how good and solid of a promotion they are. Case in point, look at ROH, they have to rely on old dudes because all of their talent is being poached. I don't know what shape they'd be in right now if they didn't have the Bucks.

 

 

 

 

To be fair I never once said that wrestling is at it's lowest point it's ever been, I simply said that out of all the threats to wrestling promotions across the country (and world) that WWE is the biggest menace out there because of their ambitions for basically world domination. At least from a fans view point I have valid reasons to be wary of WWE. For one, their current product is absolutely dreadful and unappealing; it's seen better days and yet as you've all said they are by a mile the biggest company of it's kind in the world.

They can seemingly take away talent from any other promotion at will. As a big fan of CMLL I fear that they will try and go after some of that companies biggest young talent like Dragon Lee for example because they will most likely just do the Mistico/Sin Cara treatment or even worse, the La Sombra/Cien Almas treatment where the guy loses his mask to come to WWE and then languishes in NXT for a few years with little hope of ever making it big when back in Mexico I could see them on my TV every week. WWE has no problems with taking talent from other companies and potentially ruining their careers in some way all for the sake of trying to "experiment" with them.

It might be good times for the wrestlers themselves trying to make money, but for those of us who don't like WWE there is some trepidation.

Almas is doing pretty well for himself in NXT. He has an established role on the show as the "gatekeeper" to test the new talents, and his losses are being explained as bring due to a lack of focus due to his constant partying.

A talent like him being the gatekeeper on developmental... what a great spot.

Yeah. Being the measuring stick which the company uses to judge others. Such a terrible position. He should be used so much better. How does being stuck in Superstars Hell jobbing to the likes of Curtis Axel and Darren Young sound?

 

Being raped. Such a terrible thing. How does being raped and tortured at the same time sound?

I could swear that was the basis of him losing his mask to Atlantis. That was the rumor going on for weeks and months before their match that he was set to join WWE. Not sure what other info you know but that was what most people were speculating.

 

As soon as he had his first match Triple H did say something along the lines of 'why would you put a mask on this guy? he's a super hot babe'. Maybe not the last part.

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It's irrelevant what happens to the talent after they signed with WWE, developmental or not, that's not what the discussion is about at all. And please, NJPW is not the norm and you know it. Their success goes to show just how good and solid of a promotion they are. Case in point, look at ROH, they have to rely on old dudes because all of their talent is being poached. I don't know what shape they'd be in right now if they didn't have the Bucks.

 

 

ROH doesn't "have to do" anything...they're choosing to rely on people like Chris Daniels...and it's more out of respect than anything else. The talent pool is vast and deep...ROH is the third or fourth biggest name in the industry (behind WWE and NJPW)...(and maybe Impact, if you feel like being nice to Impact for some reason). Point being, we all know (or at least I do) that the amount of awesome talents working small indy feds is innumerable and inexhaustible. If ROH felt like getting some new people in from the smaller feds below them, and ROH felt like pushing those people as top names, they could do it. I fail to see how the laziness and poor booking choices of ROH somehow take anything away from what I've said thus far.

 

Really, though...is that the measuring stick all the sudden? ROH "isn't doing great", so people go and claim that the industry as a whole is not doing great? Last I checked, ROH was just about the only promotion that is having some rough times. And, hell...where are the complaints against NJPW for that? The partnership that ROH has with NJPW is cool...but it has essentially devalued all of those people as "ROH guys". Why should I care about watching the same people on ROH when NJPW has a better presentation?

 

Also, that's solely your opinion that ROH is struggling anyway. Last time I watched an ROH PPV, it was fantastic...and the roster as a whole is still quite fleshed out. I think that you are quite literally judging ROH on the fact that half of their roster is no longer exclusive. You're guilty of doing the exact thing I just talked about, in regards to watching the ROH guys on NJPW and not caring about ROH as a result. If you can see everyone elsewhere...then what makes ROH special, right? I think that's your true complaint. Not the WWE poaching talent.

 

With guys like Dalton Castle, Marty Scurll, and Punisher Martinez right at the forefront of ROH, I fail to see where the "relying on the past" argument comes from anyway. There is a solid handful of names that are obviously going places. And a guy like Jay White...or Lio Rush (although they lost him) could be right in line after those people.

 

So, yeah...let's not go using the personal shortcomings of ROH to say that WWE "takes too much talent from here or there"...ROH is willingly leasing their top talents out to NJPW, and people are caring less about ROH itself as a result of that. That's on them. Losing a guy like Adam Cole to WWE definitely hurts them...but not as bad as they hurt themselves on the reg. Besides, ROH gets their "second-hand" grabs...they have Cody Rhodes, they've "poached" TNA talents in the past. I just love how WWE always gets singled out. It's a connected system. Everyone gives and takes...WWE is the biggest, so they take the most, but they're getting better at taking from multiple sources and leaving enough for growth. That's what NXT does.

 

 

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Anyway...to TRY to get back on the subject of Corgan and the NWA, I wonder if he will be attempting to make any alliances with companies like ROH. Will be very interesting to see if he tries to go it alone, or if he tries to get help from the start.

Edited by Generations

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WWE is the worst thing that can happen to wrestling right now. Their goal is to supplant every major wrestling promotion in every country with their own brand of shitty entertainment.

Resulting in promoters actually paying their talent real money, since WWE is an option now

 

 

This is kind of misleading. If you mean the average indie wrestler is being paid more, that’s not true. Dave Meltzer did an article a year or two about how most NXT wrestlers aren’t even paid that well. The allure of WWE isn’t the money. The vast majority of wrestlers who end up in NXT are only there because they’re fans of the product, and because they’re holding out hope that maybe they can get really lucky and become the next John Cena or something.

The difference is that now there is a small handful of guys like the Young Bucks who make good money. There are very few of those guys, but they can make a decent living because other promotions are more popular and easy to watch now. WWE deserves some credit for this, but they aren’t the main reason, let alone the only one. As new streaming and VOD technology became available, more people were able to see all kinds of wrestling from around the world. People were gradually getting into more niche wrestling products way before WWE was highlighting those styles. Many people are becoming fans of wrestling because of other products. Because there are more wrestling fans in general, there are also more “money mark” types right now who can splurge on big names. This is why some wrestlers are being paid more.
I actually think Billy Corgan might be the best example of what I’m talking about. He’s a rich guy who happened to be a wrestling fan. He can afford to pay a lot more than your average indie promoter. But if you’ve heard interviews with him, he didn’t get into the business because he was inspired by WWE. He is just a huge fan of wrestling in general, and he was probably one of the first guys to start collecting rare tapes. He’s not just some casual fan with deep pockets. He knows his shit. That’s why I’m excited to see what he does with NWA.
Edited by Crowley

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Gen, you're acting like you're oblivious to the fact that WWE has a monopoly on wrestling. So I have nothing else to add.


And I agree with pretty much everything Crowley said.

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Gen, you're acting like you're oblivious to the fact that WWE has a monopoly on wrestling. So I have nothing else to add.

 

A "monopoly" on wrestling? What in the world are you talking about? Do all those other promotions just not exist? A monopoly is considered the "exclusive control of the supply or trade of a service"...part of your argument a while back was that the WWE ratings weren't doing well because people were choosing to watch other promotions. You're just claiming shit based on your personal disdain for WWE...it's obvious. You can't play both sides like that...

 

WWE is not a monopoly. Maybe they were during the time immediately following the collapse of WCW and ECW...but not now. Less now than ever. They're the largest and most globally recognized wrestling company...but they are not a monopoly. Don't be ridiculous. That's like saying the UFC has a monopoly on the MMA scene. They don't. There are plenty of other promotions. Being the largest brand in your respective market does not make you a monopoly...a monopoly is when there are literally no other options.

Edited by Generations

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There you go, again. Nothing's a monopoly, then. You knew perfectly well what I meant. I'm done arguing retarded details with you. Call it my personal disdain for WWE, lol.

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There you go, again. Nothing's a monopoly, then. You knew perfectly well what I meant. I'm done arguing retarded details with you. Call it my personal disdain for WWE, lol.

 

Man...

 

What is your issue?

 

You want an example of a monopoly (a real one)...that rich dude who buys the exclusive rights to the drugs that people need to survive...and then marks them up a shit load...that is a monopoly. That is a real monopoly. The WWE is not a monopoly just because you say it is.

 

And you're laughing at me...

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There you go, again. Nothing's a monopoly, then. You knew perfectly well what I meant. I'm done arguing retarded details with you. Call it my personal disdain for WWE, lol.

 

Man...

 

What is your issue?

 

You want an example of a monopoly (a real one)...that rich dude who buys the exclusive rights to the drugs that people need to survive...and then marks them up a shit load...that is a monopoly. That is a real monopoly. The WWE is not a monopoly just because you say it is.

 

And you're laughing at me...

 

 

Martin Shkreli? He does have competition though. His company doesn't meet the dictionary definition of monopoly either. I was trying to think of an example to illustrate how a corporation like that has unfair advantages over their "competition", and you thought of it for me. So if someone famous like him can get away with deciding whether people live or die, why is it such a big stretch to think that a company that offers pro wrestling, something totally meaningless that no one cares about, could get away with using sketchy business practices to maintain a monopoly some unfair advantages?

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It's still an opinion that WWE even uses "unfair practices". What are they doing that's wrong?

 

They're a large company...they have a high demand for a large number of performers...those performers exist in other companies. WWE signs those performers, completely fairly...which takes them from the other companies and brings them to the WWE. They would have to be buying out companies left and right to be considered a monopoly...all they're doing is hiring workers. Is there something "shady" or "unfair" about hiring workers all the sudden?

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It's still an opinion that WWE even uses "unfair practices". What are they doing that's wrong?

 

They're a large company...they have a high demand for a large number of performers...those performers exist in other companies. WWE signs those performers, completely fairly...which takes them from the other companies and brings them to the WWE. They would have to be buying out companies left and right to be considered a monopoly...all they're doing is hiring workers. Is there something "shady" or "unfair" about hiring workers all the sudden?

 

How about going to small venues that they don't even need and trying to tell them who can and can't run shows there? Or trying to tell people that they can't sell products that they totally own the rights to? I mean, I guess it's not illegal, but neither is what Martin Shkreli is doing.

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Gen, you're acting like you're oblivious to the fact that WWE has a monopoly on wrestling. So I have nothing else to add.

 

A "monopoly" on wrestling? What in the world are you talking about? Do all those other promotions just not exist? A monopoly is considered the "exclusive control of the supply or trade of a service"...part of your argument a while back was that the WWE ratings weren't doing well because people were choosing to watch other promotions. You're just claiming shit based on your personal disdain for WWE...it's obvious. You can't play both sides like that...

 

WWE is not a monopoly. Maybe they were during the time immediately following the collapse of WCW and ECW...but not now. Less now than ever. They're the largest and most globally recognized wrestling company...but they are not a monopoly. Don't be ridiculous. That's like saying the UFC has a monopoly on the MMA scene. They don't. There are plenty of other promotions. Being the largest brand in your respective market does not make you a monopoly...a monopoly is when there are literally no other options.

 

 

Reminds me of the big four American sports leagues: The NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB with the latter having an Anti-Trust exemption. None of those four sports leagues have any legit competition in decades. Those four could be considered as monopolies on their respective sports because they are the only game in town. All four leagues are like WWE and UFC in that without legit competition there is a lot of complacency, especially in the NFL, where there were two ties in back-to-back Sunday Night games last year.

 

As for whether or not the WWE has a monopoly? I would not go that far. I don't think it'll be like the big four where there are no options left but the WWE is trying to sign as many people as they want to and trying to restrict other promotions who aren't friendly with them. The problem is that pro wrestling isn't as cool as it was 20 years ago, so it'll be hard for Impact or New Japan's American territory to make the same impact (no pun intended) WCW made 20 years ago.

Edited by GDAWG

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It's still an opinion that WWE even uses "unfair practices". What are they doing that's wrong?

 

They're a large company...they have a high demand for a large number of performers...those performers exist in other companies. WWE signs those performers, completely fairly...which takes them from the other companies and brings them to the WWE. They would have to be buying out companies left and right to be considered a monopoly...all they're doing is hiring workers. Is there something "shady" or "unfair" about hiring workers all the sudden?

 

How about going to small venues that they don't even need and trying to tell them who can and can't run shows there? Or trying to tell people that they can't sell products that they totally own the rights to? I mean, I guess it's not illegal, but neither is what Martin Shkreli is doing.

 

 

I'm not aware of WWE doing any of the things that you just stated. So...news to me.

 

I mean...contracts are contracts. If WWE has people under contract, then they can stop them from competing for small indy feds, and they can stop them from selling their merch. I don't get the problem there. And if you're claiming that WWE just outright tells small feds what they're allowed to do...then that's news to me. I've never heard any sort of report of that happening. Sounds like a strange claim.

Edited by Generations

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It's still an opinion that WWE even uses "unfair practices". What are they doing that's wrong?

 

They're a large company...they have a high demand for a large number of performers...those performers exist in other companies. WWE signs those performers, completely fairly...which takes them from the other companies and brings them to the WWE. They would have to be buying out companies left and right to be considered a monopoly...all they're doing is hiring workers. Is there something "shady" or "unfair" about hiring workers all the sudden?

 

How about going to small venues that they don't even need and trying to tell them who can and can't run shows there? Or trying to tell people that they can't sell products that they totally own the rights to? I mean, I guess it's not illegal, but neither is what Martin Shkreli is doing.

 

Thank you. Not to mention contract tampering but they seemed to have backed off after ROH threatened to sue. Poor Kyle O'Reilly.

 

 

 

Gen, you're acting like you're oblivious to the fact that WWE has a monopoly on wrestling. So I have nothing else to add.

 

A "monopoly" on wrestling? What in the world are you talking about? Do all those other promotions just not exist? A monopoly is considered the "exclusive control of the supply or trade of a service"...part of your argument a while back was that the WWE ratings weren't doing well because people were choosing to watch other promotions. You're just claiming shit based on your personal disdain for WWE...it's obvious. You can't play both sides like that...

 

WWE is not a monopoly. Maybe they were during the time immediately following the collapse of WCW and ECW...but not now. Less now than ever. They're the largest and most globally recognized wrestling company...but they are not a monopoly. Don't be ridiculous. That's like saying the UFC has a monopoly on the MMA scene. They don't. There are plenty of other promotions. Being the largest brand in your respective market does not make you a monopoly...a monopoly is when there are literally no other options.

 

 

Reminds me of the big four American sports leagues: The NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB with the latter having an Anti-Trust exemption. None of those four sports leagues have any legit competition in decades. Those four could be considered as monopolies on their respective sports because they are the only game in town. All four leagues are like WWE and UFC in that without legit competition there is a lot of complacency, especially in the NFL, where there were two ties in back-to-back Sunday Night games last year.

 

As for whether or not the WWE has a monopoly? I would not go that far. I don't think it'll be like the big four where there are no options left but the WWE is trying to sign as many people as they want to and trying to restrict other promotions who aren't friendly with them.

 

WWE is to wrestling in the US what the NFL is to american football and NBA is to basketball. It's still the only game in town. The Bucks are the exception, not the rule.

 

 

It's still an opinion that WWE even uses "unfair practices". What are they doing that's wrong?

 

They're a large company...they have a high demand for a large number of performers...those performers exist in other companies. WWE signs those performers, completely fairly...which takes them from the other companies and brings them to the WWE. They would have to be buying out companies left and right to be considered a monopoly...all they're doing is hiring workers. Is there something "shady" or "unfair" about hiring workers all the sudden?

 

How about going to small venues that they don't even need and trying to tell them who can and can't run shows there? Or trying to tell people that they can't sell products that they totally own the rights to? I mean, I guess it's not illegal, but neither is what Martin Shkreli is doing.

 

I'm not aware of WWE doing any of the things that you just stated. So...news to me.

 

I mean...contracts are contracts. If WWE has people under contract, then they can stop them from competing for small indy feds, and they can stop them from selling their merch. I don't get the problem there. And if you're claiming that WWE just outright tells small feds what they're allowed to do...then that's news to me. I've never heard any sort of report of that happening. Sounds like a strange claim.

 

They tell VENUES who can and can't run shows there. They do have that blackmail history.

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Maturity levels through the roof.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Anyway...trying to get back to NWA yet again...

 

As much as I wouldn't want him involved...If Corgan got Hulk Hogan signed on, that could be a kickstart for things. Hogan will always have that fanbase that will follow him anywhere and watch anything that he's involved with. Like I said...on a personal level, I'd like to keep Hogan far away. But...from a business perspective, it might be a wise choice. Do a whole campaign where Hogan says that NWA is running wild. Cut some promos about how the company that everyone thought was dead is "back and better than ever"...yadda, yadda. Rip some shirts, sign some babies...typical Hogan shit.

 

Edited by Generations

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Maturity levels through the roof.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Anyway...trying to get back to NWA yet again...

 

As much as I wouldn't want him involved...If Corgan got Hulk Hogan signed on, that could be a kickstart for things. Hogan will always have that fanbase that will follow him anywhere and watch anything that he's involved with. Like I said...on a personal level, I'd like to keep Hogan far away. But...from a business perspective, it might be a wise choice. Do a whole campaign where Hogan says that NWA is running wild. Cut some promos about how the company that everyone thought was dead is "back and better than ever"...yadda, yadda. Rip some shirts, sign some babies...typical Hogan shit.

 

 

Hogan will probably end up back in the WWE via 2K18 as I think he'll be the WWE 2K18 legend and then resume his duties as an Ambassador for the WWE by next year.

 

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I'm 50/50 on Hogan being brought back to WWE...I don't really see a need for it. I think the dust has settled enough to make it happen, but I don't know why WWE would really rush to make it happen. Also, I think Kurt Angle will probably be the main selling point of 2K18. No real need for Hogan.

 

But, yeah...NWA could use his celebrity.

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I'm 50/50 on Hogan being brought back to WWE...I don't really see a need for it. I think the dust has settled enough to make it happen, but I don't know why WWE would really rush to make it happen. Also, I think Kurt Angle will probably be the main selling point of 2K18. No real need for Hogan.

 

But, yeah...NWA could use his celebrity.

 

The WWE 2K Games over the last few years always has a legend that we would not expect to be back in the WWE but they are through the games and they eventually go back (or in the case of Sting arrive) to the WWE. At this time a year ago, we didn't expect Goldberg back in the WWE but he came back and 2K17 played a role in that. The Ultimate Warrior is another example of that. I think Angle will be the Hall of Fame DLC anyways.

 

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That's really using the exception as the rule, don't you think? More to the point, the 2K games have had a big character that could be used to sell games. It doesn't really need to be a surprise announcement. Angle is definitely the biggest character for that role. It hardly matters that he's back before the game is out. He is still that game-seller. If they do bring Hogan back and make him the cover star, it will be complete overkill. They might still do it...but it's not necessary or expected, IMO.

 

Anyway...enough of the 2K series. Trying really hard to keep this about NWA. :lol:

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I could see Corgan trying to reach out to ROH if New Japan drops them once they open up their American territory next year.

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I'm not sure how high Billy Corgans "wrestling IQ" is, but if he really knows about wrestling he would play up the NWA's long and prestigious history and make it seem like a huge deal in the world of wrestling. He could hype up how NWA was bigger then the WWE and all other promotions at one point.

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Does the NWA have a main territory? The only thing I know about the NWA currently is that Jazz is the Women's Champion and Rob Conway (yes, that Rob Conway) was a former tag team champion.

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