Dark Souls Series

[CROSS-Out]

Again, I don't think we're going to completely agree with eachother either way. But like I said, thats actually part of why I love the souls series so much, as every single person has a different experience with it. Still, thank you for the discussion.

Also gotta say, having Havel show up in the peaks though, man that nostalgia rush was real.

Woot, took me a good 45 minutes of trying, but I sent the nameless king on down ta hell.

[Lyriqz ✪]

How?! His second stage wrecks me everytime, I just can't get a hit in? Mind sharing level and gear?

[Mustacio]

Did any of you pussoirs start with the deprived class, and only allow yourself to use armor and weapon you pick up?

That's how I roll.

[Lyriqz ✪]

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

[CROSS-Out]

How?! His second stage wrecks me everytime, I just can't get a hit in? Mind sharing level and gear?

The first phase, I stayed in close to the head while locked on to the rider itself so I could dodge most attacks, made heavy use of my i-frames for that. For me, the second phase reck'd me too, a lot. I guess I simply got lucky and stayed back during a try to examine his attacks. I only blocked when I had no choice, for the most part I relied on my i-frames again, and never went above 2 hit combos.

 

As for equipment, I was running the fallen knight set, sunlight straight sword +4, not entirely sure what rings I was using except for havels ring and knights ring, and my level was around the 85 mark or so, though some of those levels had been thrown in to luck because I wanted better drops.

 

And of course, after you beat him, you can find the dragonslayer armor set, Oh Ornstein, how i've missed thee.

 

In retrospect I should've grabbed the recording of the fight before I went to bed last night, my bad.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Aaaaaaand first run through the game completed with all currently known bosses beaten. Eeeeexcellent.

[Phantasmagore]

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

What class/build did you play with?

[Lyriqz ✪]

 

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

What class/build did you play with?

 

 

First playthrough I went mercenary 'cause I thought the stats looked promising. Went with a quality build, and worked pretty darn well. Second time I picked pyromancer and, honestly, I had to spread my stats really thin + pyromancies are kinda lame so far. Maybe eventually I'll get better ones, though.

 

I wanna do a pure STR (so Knight) or STR/FTH build next for sure. The new miracles are so nicely animated.

[CROSS-Out]

So new game plus is much more... samey, compared to what I was led to believe. most enemies are in the same locations, are only slightly stronger (Mind you I don't want a repeat of bloodbornes NG+).

[Lyriqz ✪]

So new game plus is much more... samey, compared to what I was led to believe. most enemies are in the same locations, are only slightly stronger (Mind you I don't want a repeat of bloodbornes NG+).

 

Aw, really? I haven't started it yet, but that's disappointing. And you need to go to NG++ for the trophies, too.

[Gamevolt]

If you go pure STR then get the Dark Sword. It just dominates most enemies.

[CROSS-Out]

 

So new game plus is much more... samey, compared to what I was led to believe. most enemies are in the same locations, are only slightly stronger (Mind you I don't want a repeat of bloodbornes NG+).

 

Aw, really? I haven't started it yet, but that's disappointing. And you need to go to NG++ for the trophies, too.

 

 

Yeah, its a bit disappointing. finding different items in some places is nice though. Like the red eye ring +1.

[Phantasmagore]

 

 

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

What class/build did you play with?

 

 

First playthrough I went mercenary 'cause I thought the stats looked promising. Went with a quality build, and worked pretty darn well. Second time I picked pyromancer and, honestly, I had to spread my stats really thin + pyromancies are kinda lame so far. Maybe eventually I'll get better ones, though.

 

I wanna do a pure STR (so Knight) or STR/FTH build next for sure. The new miracles are so nicely animated.

 

 

I'm currently playing a pure DEX build with a Mercenary, it's working out well so far, although I am considering adding INT to the mix because I like the idea of a spellsword or battlemage, perhaps I could roll with a Pyromancer for the latter in my second playthrough.

[Lyriqz ✪]

 

 

 

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

What class/build did you play with?

 

 

First playthrough I went mercenary 'cause I thought the stats looked promising. Went with a quality build, and worked pretty darn well. Second time I picked pyromancer and, honestly, I had to spread my stats really thin + pyromancies are kinda lame so far. Maybe eventually I'll get better ones, though.

 

I wanna do a pure STR (so Knight) or STR/FTH build next for sure. The new miracles are so nicely animated.

 

 

I'm currently playing a pure DEX build with a Mercenary, it's working out well so far, although I am considering adding INT to the mix because I like the idea of a spellsword or battlemage, perhaps I could roll with a Pyromancer for the latter in my second playthrough.

 

 

That was my intention with the pyromancer, but it doesn't really work yet. Maybe I just lack the levels, but there's very little utility I found useful, especially since all the weapons I enjoy using so far are non-buffable.

 

 

[CROSS-Out]

I'm at around level 104 on my main guy at the moment. Now i'm just trying to get my dex up, since it turns out the sunlight straight sword (which i've started using as my main weapon) is pure quality build between str and dex. surprised it doesn't scale at all with faith.

[Mustacio]

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

Sounds like kiddy-talk to me.

[Lyriqz ✪]

You needa git gud

[CROSS-Out]

 

Nah, because Deprived is shit for late game. Too many wasted points.

 

Sounds like kiddy-talk to me.

 

 

All deprived really does is give you shitty starting gear and start you a couple levels lower than the other classes, something that will be fixed relatively quickly.

[Lyriqz ✪]

I mean, to be honest, this is the easiest game for deprived. Club's a decent weapon and you get weapons and shields thrown at you like crazy in this game anyways. And armor, you get quickly too. I honestly don't think I've ever used my starting gear with any character as soon as I hit Undead Settlement. So all deprived does in this game is *Censored* up your end-game/late-game stats cause you'll have points locked away in the default distribution you can't push around. I mean, if you don't play online min-maxing isn't a big deal, but it's just kinda pointless. In DS2 too, though, since you could get 10k souls in like five minutes and just buy clubs or pick up broadswords. Only in DS1 was Deprived actually worthwile and somewhat harder.

 

What REALLY puts me off Deprived in this game, though, is the lore. You already linked the flame. You're a Lord of Cinder. You ain't some hollow hobo. I mean, to each their own, but that's like hexer Havel. Just gross.

[CROSS-Out]

I mean, to be honest, this is the easiest game for deprived. Club's a decent weapon and you get weapons and shields thrown at you like crazy in this game anyways. And armor, you get quickly too. I honestly don't think I've ever used my starting gear with any character as soon as I hit Undead Settlement. So all deprived does in this game is *Censored* up your end-game/late-game stats cause you'll have points locked away in the default distribution you can't push around. I mean, if you don't play online min-maxing isn't a big deal, but it's just kinda pointless. In DS2 too, though, since you could get 10k souls in like five minutes and just buy clubs or pick up broadswords. Only in DS1 was Deprived actually worthwile and somewhat harder.

 

What REALLY puts me off Deprived in this game, though, is the lore. You already linked the flame. You're a Lord of Cinder. You ain't some hollow hobo. I mean, to each their own, but that's like hexer Havel. Just gross.

 

I think you might be misunderstanding the story a little bit. At the start of the game, you have not yet linked the fire (which is one of the endings you can get, of three). It works quite similarly to how the "chosen undead" prophecy turned out to work in DS1. Not that you start off as the heir to the fire and a soon to be lord of cinder, but rather that by proving yourself and forging ahead on the quest, you "become" the one destined to be so.

 

God damn Kaathe and Fraampt were assholes..

 

But yeah, Deprived actually gets a pretty fair shake in DS3 since the club is strike damage as far as I know, and Gundyr being an armored enemy would be weak to strike damage. And it'd help a player learn the dodging better and quicker, since dodging is super powerful in this game.

[Lyriqz ✪]

The way I see it (and I've honestly never seen anyone dispute that prior to your post. But that isn't meant to dismiss you) is that you're a lord of cinder. I mean, you even get adressed as such at least once, I'm pretty sure. Lords of Cinders are those who have sacrificed themselves to link the flame and prolong the flame. Thus, logically, the player character has already linked the flame.

[CROSS-Out]

The way I see it (and I've honestly never seen anyone dispute that prior to your post. But that isn't meant to dismiss you) is that you're a lord of cinder. I mean, you even get adressed as such at least once, I'm pretty sure. Lords of Cinders are those who have sacrificed themselves to link the flame and prolong the flame. Thus, logically, the player character has already linked the flame.

 

The lords of cinder in you refers to you being next in the line I believe. In other words you're supposed to be the next in the line and thus are seen as a lord of cinder for that reason. If you had already linked the fire, you'd be dead or hollowed and end up a part of the amalgamation of the lords that you fight at the end of the game (like Gwynn and The Chosen Undead).

 

It's also why it makes the third (and I believe, canon) ending so important, because you become a lord of cinder in a very different way than intended.

 

Although I admit its vague enough that your character very well could have been a lord who already linked as well, and had been resurrected in the same way that the lords you hunt down are. I just don't see From doing that yet though, they tend to like the idea of starting you off as a nobody and making you in to a somebody.

[Lyriqz ✪]

Mhh... Maybe. I personally don't really see it that way. Just like how Aldritch, the Watchers, Yhorm, Ludleth and Lothric are special Lords of Cinders in that they were needed to be slain for the flame's cycle to take a dramatic turn (in whichever way you end up with) you are special in that you are tasked with slaying them. Your take on it is just as possible, of course, but yeah. Good thinking though.

[CROSS-Out]

Mhh... Maybe. I personally don't really see it that way. Just like how Aldritch, the Watchers, Yhorm, Ludleth and Lothric are special Lords of Cinders in that they were needed to be slain for the flame's cycle to take a dramatic turn (in whichever way you end up with) you are special in that you are tasked with slaying them. Your take on it is just as possible, of course, but yeah. Good thinking though.

 

God damn I love discussing DS lore, specifically because it can be taken in multiple ways.

 

Another reason I don't see your character having already linked the flame is because while the lords of cinder were resurrected, they have to be returned to their thrones and killed in order to access the kiln. If you were in the same vein as them, I think you'd also need to be executed to do so, instead you're the next lord tasked with finding them and killing them so that you can reach the kiln and become the next link in the chain.

 

But because the PC is an unkindled, they can merge both the power of the first flame and the dark sigil, thus allowing them to usurp the flame and become a lord in a way that Gwynn and the age of fire did not anticipate nor intend. This doesn't feel like it'd be the case had the PC previously linked the flame and simply been resurrected in the same way that the lords you're meant to hunt down were.

[Lyriqz ✪]

Well, I mean, the thing is that, since only a few LoC were even required to be returned to their throne, it leaves open a few things. It COULD be that they're the only ones because no other lord left their throne. However, that would mean there's hundreds of Firelink Shrine-esque locations with thrones, which is possible, of course. That still leaves open how exactly the Soul of Cinder has congregated though. Did it exist when the Cinder Lords roamed around? Did it form as they were all slain again? We know souls don't die if they are strong enough, so in what state do the lords need to be for the thrones to be in an ideal state?

 

Ultimately, you can embrace or refute the fire. I don't think either ending I had so far is a mere "prolong the flame's warmth" thing like DS1. It seems considerably more final. However, it can't ever be final, right? And how does DS2's ending (the Aldia one) in this whole cycle?

 

I feel if there are exceptions to the lords in the four we fight, then there can be exceptions whose mission it becomes to slay them once more. I mean think about it. Nito died in DS1 to US. Then he was clearly channeled in the Rotten one in DS2. And Aldritch was able to devour him, so... It sees there's various ways a great souls can be reborn and either go with or against the flow of the flame and the dark. I definitely think it's possible the PC could've linked the flame before. It just makes more sense to me given that we're not hollow by default, we arise from a proper cemetary and we fueled by embers. That's really it. It makes sense for someone who has linked the flame to be fueled by it much more in my opinion. That's why the DS1 and even the DS2 character were fueled with humanity. They arguably went with the "good" choice if they embraced the darkness by turning away from rekindling the flame. This time, we're doing a final, non-cyclical ending either way, so we must be special in a sense the previous chosen undeads weren't.

[CROSS-Out]

Well, I mean, the thing is that, since only a few LoC were even required to be returned to their throne, it leaves open a few things. It COULD be that they're the only ones because no other lord left their throne. However, that would mean there's hundreds of Firelink Shrine-esque locations with thrones, which is possible, of course. That still leaves open how exactly the Soul of Cinder has congregated though. Did it exist when the Cinder Lords roamed around? Did it form as they were all slain again? We know souls don't die if they are strong enough, so in what state do the lords need to be for the thrones to be in an ideal state?

 

Ultimately, you can embrace or refute the fire. I don't think either ending I had so far is a mere "prolong the flame's warmth" thing like DS1. It seems considerably more final. However, it can't ever be final, right? And how does DS2's ending (the Aldia one) in this whole cycle?

 

I feel if there are exceptions to the lords in the four we fight, then there can be exceptions whose mission it becomes to slay them once more. I mean think about it. Nito died in DS1 to US. Then he was clearly channeled in the Rotten one in DS2. And Aldritch was able to devour him, so... It sees there's various ways a great souls can be reborn and either go with or against the flow of the flame and the dark. I definitely think it's possible the PC could've linked the flame before. It just makes more sense to me given that we're not hollow by default, we arise from a proper cemetary and we fueled by embers. That's really it. It makes sense for someone who has linked the flame to be fueled by it much more in my opinion. That's why the DS1 and even the DS2 character were fueled with humanity. They arguably went with the "good" choice if they embraced the darkness by turning away from rekindling the flame. This time, we're doing a final, non-cyclical ending either way, so we must be special in a sense the previous chosen undeads weren't.

 

There's three endings, the first in which you embrace the fire and become the next link in the chain. The second in which you instead let the firekeeper do her thing, ending the fire. The third (and the one I believe is canon) is the usurpation of the fire, which you need to go through the Anri/Yoel/Yuria sidequest to even access.

 

I believe it's hinted that the Red Knight is a rather recent creation, the lords souls combining in to him only recently due to the events and apocalyptic nature of the world in the last game. Remember, a SHIIIITLOAD of time has passed between 1, 2, and 3. hundreds if not thousands of years (you can actually kind of see this since whereas in DS1 and 2, the undead are always seen as this cursed horrible thing that needs to be ended, but by 3 people seem to just be kind of used to undead. Half due to the passing of time and half due to far bigger things to worry about).

 

We can definitely see that the lords don't stay dead once beaten. After all (spoilers for end game boss) the first half of the fight against the red knight is clearly meant to give you the feeling you're fighting the chosen undead, and the second stage of the fight is an obvious player punch, meant to make it clear that there is still something of Gwynn left inside of it.

 

As for DS2s ending, I'm not sure about the throne of want (though its hinted by some that it might actually be the kiln, and you're more or less tricked in to igniting it again by sitting on it), but Vendrick himself actually came up with the idea to usurp the fire by combining the power of the flame and the dark sigil, which you can accomplish in the end of Dark Souls 3. The problem was he was to late, he couldn't pull it off before Nassandra basically *censored*ed him over, and Nassandra being a remnant of Manus obviously would want control over the kiln without linking it (if she even COULD link it considering her nature).

 

The kiln seems to be a metaphysical place, not of the same realm as the rest of the games. IE its not so much that all firelink shrines link to different ones so much as once access is granted with the lords defeat, they link to the kilns realm. It doesn't help that Firelink Shrine seems to be almost like a dream in that of itself, rather than the real firelink shrine from 1.

 

 

SO basically, how the cycle works is as follows. The first flame is created and harnessed, so it starts going out. Gwynn uses himself to fuel it after the witch if Izaleth fails to create a new one, becoming the bed of chaos in the process. From here, the cycle begins, with the fire beginning to fade again and the serpents creating the prophecy to trick strong undead in to becoming fuel for the fire again. If someone should choose to let the fire die and begin an age of dark, it doesn't matter because eventually another will come around and ignite it again either. This cycle continues on and on and on until the third ending of DS3 where the unkindled one can usurp it instead of fueling it or letting it die. That is what would end the cycle, and its what Vendrick in the second game had been trying to figure out, since someone with that kind of power after usurping it would basically be king of all undead as well. Being able to rule them or even possibly ending the curse all together. This endgoal was, in fact, the fertive pigmy (the progenitor of the dark sou)'s plan all along. The end result being that control of everythings destiny finally being in the hands of humanity itself.

 

Also just want to point out that while the lords eventually do come back over and over, it isn't to say they never "die". The problem is that a lords soul is far stronger than a normal soul and even after use, isn't truly gone. So they always have in essence the chance to return. That's why Gwyndolin would likely have preferred to die again instead of being absorbed by Aldrich, and that's why even now, remnants of the chosen undead and Gwynn still live within the red knight.