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Ernez

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Guest Fight Me.

Or maybe not have been at the Impact Show at all...I would've been okay with watching this at like 3pm if they decided to do it in the UK, which is where TNA usually draws their biggest crowds.

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Show was okay, but it left me with more questions than answers...and that really didn't feel like the point of the show. You'd think they'd want to assure their fans in a much bigger way than that. Right now, I feel no more sure of TNA's future than I did three hours ago...I might even feel a bit more unsure.

 

No offense, but it sounds like you may not have been their target audience. You thought the whole show was built around some huge announcement or something. You didn't take my comment about The Great War being a MOTY candidate seriously. You aren't a Lashley fan, you thought BFG was not great overall, and most importantly you said that you hope the company gets bought by WWE. I don't think it was aimed at people who feel the way you do, but I could be wrong.

 

If they ARE going out of business, I think it makes more sense to do a straight forward TNA style show and cater to your diehard fans by giving them a nice send-off. I'm sure they understood that a lot of WWE fans would tune in hoping to see Triple H or something. There were a few little easter eggs and homages to WWE on the show, mainly in the Hardys match. I don't know if you caught those, but they were really cool.

 

 

What is their target audience? People who watch nothing but TNA?

 

The Great war was NOT MotY candidate...not even close. It was hilarious...but it was a goddamn cluster*censored*. Anyone who was being serious about that being match of the year is a goddamn loon. It was HIGHLY entertaining, but, I've seen way too many amazing matches this year from NXT, the CWC, NJPW, Lucha Underground, etc...to seriously consider for a quarter of a second that the *censored*ing ridiculous Great War match came close to being a match of the year candidate. That's funny to say as a joke. But it ends there. And, hell...I would say confidently, that the Great War was not even as good as the Final Deletion.

 

Lashley? He's nothing special. Why the *Censored* do I have to like him? I went into great detail to explain how he's literally no different than Roman Reigns. And it's true. He just has the benefit of working in a company where people let that slide.

 

And they definitely did hype the show by saying they had "BIG NEWS" and told us all that BFG would be a show that nobody would want to miss. That was all bullshit. There was nothing even slightly resembling big news on that show.

 

You want to accuse me of shitting on TNA for no reason? I'm just giving my honest opinion. They oversold the show as something that would give us all answers and establish TNA as a force going forward...but it might as well have just been an episode of Impact...because nothing too crazy happened...at all.

 

 

And no...I was seriously not watching and expecting to see HHH. I've said that as a joke. I didn't expect that at all. And if I was expecting it, then it certainly wouldn't have kept me from appreciating the show itself anyway. I give TNA props for some of the things they do. I've been watching again on a regular basis, for months before they started talking about selling to WWE. I've been watching Impact and enjoying it on a weekly basis. It's not like I wouldn't have watched this if the rumors about the company selling never happened. I would have watched it either way, and I would have had the same complaints. This PPV was nothing special. It just wasn't. Your overselling of everything that happened on it isn't going to convince me otherwise. It felt like it should have been more important, because of he weight of the announcement that we all expected...but it didn't deliver on that weight. It was a very average show.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway...

 

Most of the TNA stars I'm seeing on twitter are saying that they love the TNA roster, or saying that BFG is "in the books"...or "thank you for supporting our roster"...all of which still sounds very suspect to me. I'm about 92% sure this company is gone by the end of the week.

 

 

Well to be fair, no one said you have to like Bobby Lashley. Obviously when you bitch about him, people are going to explain why they disagree. If they really did hype BFG having some huge announcement, I know I didn't give a *Censored*. TNA has been in a constant state of financial turmoil for so long now that I guess I'm just used to it. The fact that someone helped finance BFG gave me hope. At this point, it seems like as long as Hunter doesn't get them, they'll still be around. And I want you to know that I actually agree that BFG wasn't some incredible show. I did enjoy it. I didn't think it was on par with the average episode of Impact like you said earlier.

 

 

Now that I got that out of the way, please let me explain why you're totally wrong about The Great War.

 

 

The way you describe it makes me think you must have a very old fashioned outlook on wrestling, not unlike Jim Cornette. If you think saying that it's a MOTY contender makes me a "goddamn loon" as you put it, I think you'd be surprised to see how many loons there are saying the same thing right now. And no, they're not all saying it ironically. You're right that it's fun to say as a joke. These characters are eccentric egomaniacs, and fans playing along by championing their works as masterpieces has always been part of the appeal. But you have to understand why there's also a lot of truth to it. The Great War wasn't just good, it was *censored*ing outstanding. Yes, it was silly and corny. Of course it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. But that doesn't mean that it can't also be great. All of those things I just said are true of wrestling in general. For years now TNA has been the laughing stock of wrestling, but after a while that just made them more self aware, and they realized they had nothing left to lose. The original Final Deletion match was a Hail Mary, and it paid off. It proved that there's still a lot of new directions for wrestling to go in.

 

When's the last time you watched a match with so much witty dialogue between so many characters? When's the last time you watched a match where *censored*ing editing played such a vital role? How many matches begin with musical numbers? The inside jokes and symbolism in this match were incredible. Smashed pumpkins backstage, focusing on the "Universal" logo, and incorporating Matt's old WWF theme into the piano melody were little details that made a huge difference. There were fresh ideas throughout the whole thing. I liked the CWC too, but none of those matches had anywhere near as much thought put into them as these guys' matches have. None of them will be as memorable or have the same influence over future matches either. I thought The Great War did a good job of continuing a simple, cheesy, well booked wrestling angle. But it wasn't so much the subject matter of the story that made it good, as it was the way they went about telling the story.

 

Personally, I can see where you're coming from saying that you preferred the Final Deletion. I think there's an argument to be made for that. If nothing else, Final Deletion was more innovative because it was the first one. But personally I think the Great War was better over all. All of these matches definitely deserve credit.

 

So why doesn't it deserve to be considered a MOTY candidate? Because it's not "serious" enough? Because it isn't thirty minutes of flipping around, near falls, and no selling? I don't see how calling this a MOTY is a joke anymore than calling Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Sami Zayn would be. Are you really that much more impressed by two skinny fat nerds in spandex having a generic, choreographed fight? In the big scheme of things, how is that any more special? They certainly didn't break new ground. This is coming from someone who loves them both. I just don't understand that mentality at all. If you really appreciate wrestling as an art form than you'd see there are just as many impressive things about Great War and you'd understand that there is no one right way to have a match. Part of what makes these matches so great is that they are challenging the fans and making them ask questions like this. What really makes a match good? The Great War is true avant garde wrestling. It's awesome stuff. I know a lot of people will read this and say I'm "overanalyzing it", "taking it too seriously", ect. But ten bucks those same people will rage just because I had the audacity to compare Great War to Nakamura vs. Zayn. I'm not trolling and it's not blasphemous. If you really watch this match and think it's sooooo different from the most critically acclaimed matches, you're the one who takes wrestling too seriously. At the end of the day, all wrestling is goofy shit. Great War is every bit as much of a MOTY candidate.

 

 

 

TLDR; Great War was a MOTY candidate because once again these guys told a unique story by experimenting with everything under the sun. They did a good job of weaving the real life controversies over these matches and TNA into the kayfabe. It was silly, mindless fun yet infinitely more ground breaking than the usual suspects that get mentioned when MOTY is brought up. The production was as good as most matches in Lucha Underground. It also elicited every bit as much of a strong reaction, if not stronger reaction from everyone who saw it as other MOTY candidates.

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Honestly Crowley, I'm not usre if you are defending the point od The Great War or Final Deletion being MOTY candidates cus you really believe in that, or just for the arguments sake.Both is fine tough.

I mean, actually, that's fine and all because in your opinion those matches could be considered as candidates, BUT, calling what they are doing as avantgarde of wrestling...that is a little bit too much really.
I have no problem with anyone enjoying the Broken Matt gimmick Final Deletion or anything that comes with it, I know most people really like it "ironicly" actually, but let's not go overboard with the arguments.

I think most of the stuff they do is way over the top, and actually "kitsch". The "seriousness" stuff isn't the point, because 80% of WWE is silly, NJPW, and whatever promotion or style of wrestling. Let's face it, wrestling is athletic enetertainment, and it always was "silly", but there is a very good degree of artistry in it. And I connect artistry with emotion. Of course that's just one aspect of it, but it leads me to my point.

 

 

 

When's the last time you watched a match with so much witty dialogue between so many characters? When's the last time you watched a match where *censored*ing editing played such a vital role? How many matches begin with musical numbers? The inside jokes and symbolism in this match were incredible. Smashed pumpkins backstage, focusing on the "Universal" logo, and incorporating Matt's old WWF theme into the piano melody were little details that made a huge difference. There were fresh ideas throughout the whole thing. I liked the CWC too, but none of those matches had anywhere near as much thought put into them as these guys' matches have. None of them will be as memorable or have the same influence over future matches either. I thought The Great War did a good job of continuing a simple, cheesy, well booked wrestling angle. But it wasn't so much the subject matter of the story that made it good, as it was the way they went about telling the story.

These "inside jokes" and "symbolism"... Man, I really don't think you can find it witty at all or really that "creative". Or I guess your standards for it are really low. And no, I'm not talking about "subjective", I'm talking about standards. Ridicolous in a creative way is great, ridiciolous in cheesy way not so much. And I think all these things are actually substitues conciously or subconciously for what they match itself or story is lacking. Emotion. I know there are different understandings of what we are talking baout, especially if you are gonna talk about art or creativity. But if you are gonna talk about matches of the year, then you are talking about some standards.

You were taking Zayn vs Nakamura for example. Well for me, Nakamura vs Samoa Joe is one hell of an under appriciated match, meaning I know it is appriciated but I think it should be even more. Just as well the whole Brooklyn II Takeover. Why? I knew what was going on and what the whole event and matches were about even tough I don't think if I watched a whole episode of NXT leading to that Takeover. But that was a simple storytelling that was told in a much more meaningfull and emotion provoking way...way more than The Great War or whatever. And hell, yes even Zayn vs Nakamura. I watched Nakamura before, but I can't say I was a fan really since I didn't watch NJPW that much. I saw some shows and Wrestling Kingdoms but I never got inveseted that much. But seeing Nakamura made his entrance in NXT...boom. I legit got goosebumbs like thousands of more people did at that moment. Seeing him moveand look and everything I tought, THIS is an artist in wrestling (not the only one of course). And seeing Samis face and emotion just while he was looking at Skinsuke coming down... everything about it made it feel human.
Now these are only glimpses...yet, none of that is/was present in the matches discussed. I would or could go much much more longer in trying to explain but I think you are a very smart guy so I don't need to go on.

It was well tough out, so kudos to that. But that's actually it. Some people are enjoying it, well...ok. But there is really no reason to make it more than it is.


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Honestly Crowley, I'm not usre if you are defending the point od The Great War or Final Deletion being MOTY candidates cus you really believe in that, or just for the arguments sake.Both is fine tough.

 

I mean, actually, that's fine and all because in your opinion those matches could be considered as candidates, BUT, calling what they are doing as avantgarde of wrestling...that is a little bit too much really.

I have no problem with anyone enjoying the Broken Matt gimmick Final Deletion or anything that comes with it, I know most people really like it "ironicly" actually, but let's not go overboard with the arguments.

 

I think most of the stuff they do is way over the top, and actually "kitsch". The "seriousness" stuff isn't the point, because 80% of WWE is silly, NJPW, and whatever promotion or style of wrestling. Let's face it, wrestling is athletic enetertainment, and it always was "silly", but there is a very good degree of artistry in it. And I connect artistry with emotion. Of course that's just one aspect of it, but it leads me to my point.

 

 

 

When's the last time you watched a match with so much witty dialogue between so many characters? When's the last time you watched a match where *censored*ing editing played such a vital role? How many matches begin with musical numbers? The inside jokes and symbolism in this match were incredible. Smashed pumpkins backstage, focusing on the "Universal" logo, and incorporating Matt's old WWF theme into the piano melody were little details that made a huge difference. There were fresh ideas throughout the whole thing. I liked the CWC too, but none of those matches had anywhere near as much thought put into them as these guys' matches have. None of them will be as memorable or have the same influence over future matches either. I thought The Great War did a good job of continuing a simple, cheesy, well booked wrestling angle. But it wasn't so much the subject matter of the story that made it good, as it was the way they went about telling the story.

These "inside jokes" and "symbolism"... Man, I really don't think you can find it witty at all or really that "creative". Or I guess your standards for it are really low. And no, I'm not talking about "subjective", I'm talking about standards. Ridicolous in a creative way is great, ridiciolous in cheesy way not so much. And I think all these things are actually substitues conciously or subconciously for what they match itself or story is lacking. Emotion. I know there are different understandings of what we are talking baout, especially if you are gonna talk about art or creativity. But if you are gonna talk about matches of the year, then you are talking about some standards.

 

You were taking Zayn vs Nakamura for example. Well for me, Nakamura vs Samoa Joe is one hell of an under appriciated match, meaning I know it is appriciated but I think it should be even more. Just as well the whole Brooklyn II Takeover. Why? I knew what was going on and what the whole event and matches were about even tough I don't think if I watched a whole episode of NXT leading to that Takeover. But that was a simple storytelling that was told in a much more meaningfull and emotion provoking way...way more than The Great War or whatever. And hell, yes even Zayn vs Nakamura. I watched Nakamura before, but I can't say I was a fan really since I didn't watch NJPW that much. I saw some shows and Wrestling Kingdoms but I never got inveseted that much. But seeing Nakamura made his entrance in NXT...boom. I legit got goosebumbs like thousands of more people did at that moment. Seeing him moveand look and everything I tought, THIS is an artist in wrestling (not the only one of course). And seeing Samis face and emotion just while he was looking at Skinsuke coming down... everything about it made it feel human.

Now these are only glimpses...yet, none of that is/was present in the matches discussed. I would or could go much much more longer in trying to explain but I think you are a very smart guy so I don't need to go on.

 

It was well tough out, so kudos to that. But that's actually it. Some people are enjoying it, well...ok. But there is really no reason to make it more than it is.

 

I agree that a good old fashioned wrestling match is capable of eliciting strong emotional responses from people. And I want to make it clear that I don't get the same feeling watching Great War as I did watching Kenta Kobashi's retirement for example. To be honest, I had more fun watching it. I don't have low standards. I must just have different criteria than you. That's interesting that you mention Nakamura's entrance at TakeOver as an example of what you feel is true, serious artistry in wrestling. I thought it felt too corporate, homogenized, and a bit played out at this point. He didn't break any new ground in the entrance or the match. It was the same entrance he always did but even more exaggerated and cartoonish because WWE can't seem to grasp the concept of subtlety. Unlike with Great War's entrances, there's no self awareness there either. For all of it's wacky angles and characters, WWE often takes itself TOO seriously these days. I think a lot of their fans, particularly the Full Sail crowd, are a great example of people who really do have low standards for wrestling. Maybe some of them are fanboys, but I think a lot of them just haven't broadened their horizons yet. There's no doubt that Shinsuke Nakamura is cool as hell. He is undoubtedly one of the best wrestlers on the planet. But take the character out of the context of wrestling, and he's just as corny as anything from Great War. Sometimes the fans go a bit overboard with their praise. Like you said yourself, "there's really no reason to make it more than it is". Great War is good avant garde wrestling, but it's not good avant garde art in general. Apparently for some people, Shinsuke Nakamura walking to the ring like Captain Jack Sparrow or something is the pinnacle of artistry by wrestling standards. That just proves wrestling has some growing to do.

 

Like I said, it's not about the content or the subject matter so much as it is the way they went about presenting it. The inside jokes and stuff weren't necessarily great writing, but it was the fact that they attempted them at all that impressed me. My hope is that these matches will inspire other wrestlers to try the same techniques, perfect them, and use them to garner totally different types of reactions from the audience. I wasn't laughing my head off while watching Great War, but I was definitely smiling through the whole thing. Am I arguing for the sake of arguing? Well I did say that part of the fun of these matches is playing along by acting like they're something that they're not. I think the way fans talk about them adds to their legend and makes them more than just ordinary matches. That's the beauty of them. Maybe it's not so much the match itself that I think deserves recognition for being great as it is the Broken Matt saga in general. He has put more effort and thought into this thing than any wrestler I've seen in years. It's totally larger than life. I really do believe it's one of the best things going in wrestling because it's fun and it's different.

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It sounds just as bad as the anti-climactic end to Jay Lethal's ROH title reign. Where do they go from here? Bullshit. I love the American Wolves, but these vanilla midgets shouldn't be competing with the likes of EC3, Lashley, Galloway, ect for the HW title. At least not without some major seasoning and character development first. Maybe it'll be alright, but I have a feeling this is going to be like Chris Sabin's title reign. It should have been Moose.

 

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Here's my take, If they were going to do a title change, they should've done it with EC3 at BFG. An X-Division wrestler should NOT have been the one to do it. Maybe Eddie is a transitional champ for someone else, hoping they play this out well. HOPING. Not going to say LOLTNA, they should die for this. Lashley has been a fantastic champion though

 

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Here's my take, If they were going to do a title change, they should've done it with EC3 at BFG. An X-Division wrestler should NOT have been the one to do it. Maybe Eddie is a transitional champ for someone else, hoping they play this out well. HOPING. Not going to say LOLTNA, they should die for this. Lashley has been a fantastic champion though

 

 

I could see it if he had any momentum at all, but he lost his match last night at Bound for Glory. He's just been kinda floating around since Davey got hurt, never really developing as a character. Now he's expected to carry the show as Champion?! I guess they're going with Lashley got too cocky and complacent and underestimated Eddie. Fine. But he already beat Eddie and Eddie lost last night!

 

Again, I've been enjoying TNA, but this was a REALLY dumb decision on their part. WCW putting the title on Kidman in 2000 would have made way more sense than this. Which they should have done tbh

 

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