Lucha Libre Discussion Thread

[Fried]

I've never seen Volador wrestle aside from his TNA appearances (Which I don't really remember) but it could be good, especially if they fix the mistakes they made with Sin Cara. Put him in NXT for a year or so to get him used to working his style with non-lucha guys, and making him a regular wrestler. By that I mean don't give him some stupid lighting, and if he's willing to wear a mask, let him wear something he's used to wearing.

 

I've personally always blamed those three things on Sin Cara's failure. From what I know, he's never worn a mash mask pre-WWE, and I've heard that bad lighting and mesh eyes aren't a good combination. Plus, he came from a promotion full of Lucha guys straight into an American style entertainment company.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with that about Sin Cara: about the mask and the lightning. I'm pretty sure Mistico wrestled in M-Pro, at least for a time, as Komachi. And I think that if Sin Cara asked for a modification of his mask, even just to open the eye holes for him, if there was a legitimate reason: safety or comfort or whatever, WWE would/should listen to him.

 

Komachi in M-Pro

If it's him I'm not 100% sure, the picture is on luchawiki on Mistico's page.

 

Volador is a great luchador, well worth checking out. Even just the match from the Anniversary or the other match I posted before.

 

He had a great rivalry with Mistico before Mistico left, they had a lot of great chemistry together. But I'm not sure if a luchador loosing his mask is a sign he's moving on to greener pastures.

 

Well each luchador still has the option of unmasking or not, at least the bigger names do, and I think Volador jr. made a name for himself.He was probably given the choice.

 

I think some of the bigger names do have a choice and a lot of them would do it because it's a big pay day.

 

I often wondered about Dos Caras Jr/Alberto if he did loose his mask voluntarily or if there was some copyright thing involved. It might be different than the MIstico/Sin Cara situation because I don't think CMLL/AAA invented the Dos Caras gimmick. I don't know where Dos Caras Sr's roots are or if it was something he created himself.

El Torito? Coming out with Los Matadors on Raw = Mascarita Sagrada?

[Astro Zombie]

I realized afterward that maskedmaniac meant that Volador may have unmasked to potentially gain more attention from WWE. Unmasking may not "get your foot in the door" so to speak, but being able to control the fans and have a good after unmasking could make them take notice IMO.

 

My basis for the Sin Cara mask/lighting statement comes from a Rickey Shane Page interview. He used to wrestle as Christian Faith (http://www.aawrestling.com/imx/christianfaith.png) and said that in darker arenas, he could see very little, or nothing. I figure it could be somewhat the same because they're both mesh eye masks and the Sin Cara lighting is/was pretty dark (Do they still use it? I haven't watched WWE in a long time). Surely the style difference can't be the only reason he's flopped. In general he just seems to be really off compared to his Mistico days. As said earlier, it's really mind blowing that he was once "the guy" in Mexico.

 

Though I do agree that WWE would surely change something if they thought it was the problem although I question if removing the mesh would be an option. If you remove the mesh you essentially have a different color scheme of one of his old masks. Perhaps it's too close for WWE's comfort in terms of copyrighting and having something that everyone identifies with WWE.

 

 

Torito is Mascarita Dorada from everything I can find. Though I've seen Sagrada's name as well, Dorada would be more logical as he signed with WWE in the last year. Props to WWE for finding a way to use him. I remember reading about the signing and wondering why they signed him.

[Fried]

From what I've seen Sin Cara is still wearing the mask with the mesh over the eyes. Maybe it is a part of it but it's hard to figure out. I bet there are a few people in WWE wondering what it is too. I agree that he hasn't been the same as his time as Mistico.

 

I think his opponents he faced in Mexico and Japan had a lot to do with it too. He worked with a lot of very good people. Not saying that there are not very good people in WWE but yeah...I thought it would of been for WWE to get Averno in but he seems to be doing alright for himself since loosing his mask.

 

Mini Sagrada/Dorada is the same guy I think, or at least for a time. I think Dorada might be a way around for CMLL to use a gimmick similar to the original Mascara Sagrada.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t80dtvuZ_gw&feature=youtu.be

Some nice action in this match

 

 

 

[Astro Zombie]

I agree that it's the people he's working, but in general he just seems...off. Even his matches with guys like Chavo or Hunico who were trained in the style had some really botched spots. I remember his feud with Hunico was especially disappointing because I really thought that those matches would help show his true potential.

Downloaded the RudoReels Lucha sampler. Here's the match listing. Really looking forward to Parka/Cibernetico and Liger/Guerrero.

Rey Mysterio Jr, Super Calo, & Winners vs Psicosis, Heavy Metal, & Picudo (AAA 1993-01-29)
La Parka vs Cibernetico, mask vs mask (AAA 2004-06-20, TripleMania XII)
Ultimo Guerrero vs Jushin Liger, CMLL HEAVY (CMLL 2009-09-25)
Psicosis vs Rey Mysterio Jr (WAR Super J Cup 1995)
Super Medics vs Erick Embry & Rick Valentine, fire deathmatch (WWC)
Chris Jericho & Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas & El Dandy (CMLL)

 

 

I got a new cable package and got The Fight Network with it. Turns out they show CMLL mini matches with dubbed English commentary. I find it surprisingly easier to watch with English commentary. Spanish commentary is so distracting to me for whatever reason.

[maskedmaniac]

About Volador, my theory was that if he's planning on making the jump to the US, unmasking not only makes it easier to come over because of all the legal issues, but it broadens his chances of getting hired if they like his look unmasked as well; he can either be an unmasked guy or a masked guy without the fear of showing his face for the first time.

 

Also, I found it interesting in the 80th Anniversary show how he was wearing an outfit similar to Sin Caras. Didn't anyone else notice that? I'm not sure if that's his traditional ring gear or not, but it did seem odd. Same colors and look to Sin Caras.

[Fried]

It is interesting about the mask and if loosing the mask would make you more marketable to a US company. I don't think it happened that way for Caras/Rio. I wonder if he leaves WWE for whatever reason he could go back to the Caras mask.

 

Not 100% sure but I think that light blue Volador was wearing could have been his debut colours. I seem to remember reading something like that in a recap over at luchablog.com. He had some great outfits over the years.

 

 

I agree that it's the people he's working, but in general he just seems...off. Even his matches with guys like Chavo or Hunico who were trained in the style had some really botched spots. I remember his feud with Hunico was especially disappointing because I really thought that those matches would help show his true potential.

Yeah I agree with that too. It's a strange case I think. I still wish he can somehow get through it but it's gonna be hard with all the "botch Cara" thing.

 

Downloaded the RudoReels Lucha sampler. Here's the match listing. Really looking forward to Parka/Cibernetico and Liger/Guerrero.

 

Rey Mysterio Jr, Super Calo, & Winners vs Psicosis, Heavy Metal, & Picudo (AAA 1993-01-29)

La Parka vs Cibernetico, mask vs mask (AAA 2004-06-20, TripleMania XII)

Ultimo Guerrero vs Jushin Liger, CMLL HEAVY (CMLL 2009-09-25)

Psicosis vs Rey Mysterio Jr (WAR Super J Cup 1995)

Super Medics vs Erick Embry & Rick Valentine, fire deathmatch (WWC)

Chris Jericho & Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas & El Dandy (CMLL)

 

That looks like a pretty cool comp. Don't think I've seen any of those matches.

 

I got a new cable package and got The Fight Network with it. Turns out they show CMLL mini matches with dubbed English commentary. I find it surprisingly easier to watch with English commentary. Spanish commentary is so distracting to me for whatever reason.

Yeah I get that a bit too. But there are other times where I really enjoy the commentary normally when the rudo side get up, I think they have rudo commentators. heh...

[maskedmaniac]

I can't find the exact pictures of his gear from the 80th anny. show, but I found a pic similar to what he wore that night. It looks straight out of the Sin Cara closet, especially the arm part of it:

 

 

[Fried]

Maybe they're planning a Super Sky Team reunion!

 

 

Super Sky Team: La Sombra, Volador Jr & Mistico from 2009.

 

[Astro Zombie]

It is interesting about the mask and if loosing the mask would make you more marketable to a US company. I don't think it happened that way for Caras/Rio. I wonder if he leaves WWE for whatever reason he could go back to the Caras mask.

 

Not 100% sure but I think that light blue Volador was wearing could have been his debut colours. I seem to remember reading something like that in a recap over at luchablog.com. He had some great outfits over the years.

 

 

 

I really love that Carnage Volador costume. It looks so amazing. It's one of those masks I've been looking to add to my collection.

 

I think he would be allowed to wear the mask again because it was voluntary but I'm not entirely sure. I know Eddie voluntarily unmasked but I'm not sure if he would have been allowed to re-mask. I know that Rey was supposedly allowed to re-mask when he signed with WWE because (according to Wikipedia) the lucha libre organizations said it wasn't lost in a traditional mask match. Come to think of it, haven't Psicosis and Juventud also re-masked post-WCW? I'm almost positive Psicosis did, but I've seen pics of Juvi in Mexico with and without the mask.

 

I think that losing a mask could potentially help for the reasons that maskedmaniac stated, and I think as well it could show companies that you can succeed without your mask. I'm can't say for sure, but I'm sure there are quite a few guys who've unmasked and flopped. I think it would definitely help Volador's chances of getting a WWE contract if he were to have a good career post-unmasking.

[Fried]

Yeah it seems a bit of a grey area. I thought the Boxing & Wrestling Commission were pretty tight about people who lost their mask not coming back wearing their mask. Silver King tried it and had to go with facepaint instead but then changed his name registration slightly and was able to wear a mask. Thought I even saw Volador come out with a half-mask after his mask lose to Sombra. Maybe it's only if you loose your mask in Mexico, I don't know. Maybe you can wear your mask to the ring but have to take it off before the match starts. I don't know how it works in Psicosis' or Juvi's case.

 

But I'm not really sure. I think in Rey's case WWE do whatever the *Censored* they want to do. I think that even in that post-WCW, pre-WWE period when Rey worked in Mexico and the indies he didn't have his mask. Shit, the guy was good. I understand he's older and has to work a bit wiser now, and I think he's still good doing that, but the guy could really move back then.

 

Found one of those post-WCW pre-WWE matches

 

Hijo Del Santo, ex-Rayman, Negro Casas, Rey Misterio Jr. vs Damián 666, Halloween, Juvi, Nicho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB3GgyqE_kE

 

Rey's unmasked. Juvi and Nicho (Psicosis) come out with their masks but take them off before the match starts.

[maskedmaniac]

I think it mostly only matters if you lose your mask in Mexico. I've read about wrestlers that lost their mask in Japan, and then came back to Mexico with their mask on and eventually lost it again against a Mexican opponent.

 

Also, watching this video makes me think of the "When Worlds Collide" PPV with Santo/Octagon vs Los Gringos Locos.

Excellent showcase featuring four greats, and that wasn't even the main event of the show!

[Astro Zombie]

Yeah it seems a bit of a grey area. I thought the Boxing & Wrestling Commission were pretty tight about people who lost their mask not coming back wearing their mask. Silver King tried it and had to go with facepaint instead but then changed his name registration slightly and was able to wear a mask. Thought I even saw Volador come out with a half-mask after his mask lose to Sombra. Maybe it's only if you loose your mask in Mexico, I don't know. Maybe you can wear your mask to the ring but have to take it off before the match starts. I don't know how it works in Psicosis' or Juvi's case.

 

But I'm not really sure. I think in Rey's case WWE do whatever the *Censored* they want to do. I think that even in that post-WCW, pre-WWE period when Rey worked in Mexico and the indies he didn't have his mask. Shit, the guy was good. I understand he's older and has to work a bit wiser now, and I think he's still good doing that, but the guy could really move back then.

 

Found one of those post-WCW pre-WWE matches

 

Hijo Del Santo, ex-Rayman, Negro Casas, Rey Misterio Jr. vs Damián 666, Halloween, Juvi, Nicho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB3GgyqE_kE

 

Rey's unmasked. Juvi and Nicho (Psicosis) come out with their masks but take them off before the match starts.

 

I checked Wikipedia, and Psicosis is masked again, and has been since mid-2012 apparently. I know that he did wear the mask to the ring at ECW ONS '05 but removed it to wrestle and I think I've seen Juvi do it as well in the little lucha I've seen. I'm not sure if the thing I said about Rey is true but it sounds like it could be legit. Personally I feel like it was incredibly stupid for WCW to unmask him (as well as Juvi and Psicosis) and I don't blame WWE for wanting him to put it back on. I don't know any numbers but I'd say that Rey is pretty high on the merch seller list based on replica masks alone.

 

[maskedmaniac]

Just wondering what your favorite all-time lucha libre stars are? Mines, in order more or less:

 

1. Mil Mascaras

2. Santo

3. Blue Demon

4. Rayo de Jalisco

5. Tinieblas

6. Atlantis

7. Lizmark

8. Villanos

9. Blue Panther

10. Espectro

[Fried]

That's a tough one...

 

In no particular order:

 

Volador Jr

La Sombra

La Parka / L.A. Park

Abismo Negro & La Rudos de la Galaxia (with Histeria, Mosco de la Merced, Maniaco)

Los Cadetes del Espacio (Venom, Discovery, Ludxor, Super Nova)

Mascara Dorada

Tinieblas

Cien Caras & Hermanos Dinamita (Mascara Ano 2000, Universo 2000)

Santo

Mil Mascaras

[Fried]

Reports around that Dr Wagner Jr has been stabbed in the hand.

 

Santo has come out and said that AAA sent someone to stab Wagner over a contract dispute about the copyright of Wagners name. (???)

 

Santo says:

"¡Estimados amigos! Desafortunadamente hace un par de horas mi compañero Dr Wagner Jr. Sufrió un atentado al llegar a su domicilio, fue víctima de amenazas con arma blanca y al intentar defenderse sufrió una herida en la muñeca. Esto fue relacionado con lo que declaró ante las cámaras de Televisión al referirse a que fue despojado de su personaje en USA, ya que no se trató de un asalto.

 

Antes que ser rivales en el ring, somos compañeros de profesión y le deseo su pronta recuperación! Este cobarde atentado no puede quedar impune"

Dear friends! Unfortunately a couple of hours ago my colleague Dr Wagner Jr. suffered an attack upon reaching home, was threatened with a knife and trying to fend suffered a wrist injury. This was related to what they said before TV cameras referring to who was stripped of his character in USA, because it was not an assault.

 

Rather than being rivals in the ring, we are colleagues and I wish you a speedy recovery! This cowardly attack can not go unpunished.

 

There's a pic of Wagner's injury that I won't post here because it's kind of gruesome but you can find it on Santo's facebook or Wagner's twitter.

[Fried]

This gif really made me laugh...

 

Averno celebrates slapping a restrained Blue Panther.

 

 

Haha..it reminds me a bit of Booger celebrating winning the burping contest in Revenge Of The Nerds for some reason.

[maskedmaniac]

Damn, that sounds pretty terrible for Wags to get stabbed like that. He's the man in Lucha Libre, even at his age, so I hope he heals up and keeps on trucking. Haven't seen the pics, but I suppose this isn't a work like when Santo suffered a spinal "injury" at the hands of La Park and was back in action quick as lighting a few weeks later.

[Fried]

Yeah, it looks legit. The photos around show a large gash on his wrist. He was fending off an attacker and got hit.

 

I actually don't mind Santo making up that story after the piledriver. He was scheduled to have a surgury for an unrelated issue and used the piledilver from LA Park as a cover to get his surgury done. That's got a certain old school charm to it I think.

 

However he was in the news lately for the planned Santo/Park/Wagner mask match. Apparently the match was never organised only talked about. However when the date got close and the storms hit Mexico the storms were reason he used to say that the match had been cancelled. For the time being at least.

[maskedmaniac]

Speaking of Santo, I think it would be awesome if WWE inducted Santo sr. into their hall of fame. I know he never wrestled for the company but that did not stop WWE from inducting others who never stepped in a WWF/WWE ring.

[Fried]

I agree, in fact I think Santo should of gone in before Mil Mascaras.

 

Seem to remember Hijo del Santo did compete for WWE on Super Astros.

[maskedmaniac]

Wouldn't surprise me if Hijo did compete on Super Astros. Santo sr. should be in the hall technically because he helped lucha libre become huge and opened up the doors for interest in the WWF/E in Mexico. Without Santos contributions guys like Rey Misterio, Eddie Guerrero, ADR, Mil Mascaras, and even Sin Cara would not have ever been in the WWE.

[Fried]

Hijo del Santo vs El Pantera on Super Astros

 

Seem to remember The Rudos of the Galaxy, the guys from my avatar, were on Super Astros at least once but can't seem to find it atm.

[maskedmaniac]

Dope. I think this was before Rey Misterio got there, otherwise this concept would have been huge and more masked wrestlers would have been brought in.

[Fried]

Nah Rey would of been in WCW then I think, Super Astros only ran for a few years '98-'99 or something.

 

I dunno, I think it was only designed to try and reach the hispanic audience and as an alternative to WCW's cruiserweight division.

 

 

[maskedmaniac]

Not sure where you are located, but I just noticed today on this local cable called LATV they show a CMLL for two hours. The main event today was Los Revolucionarios vs Atlantis, Mistico, and La Mascara. This is the first time I've seen CMLL, or AAA for that matter, on TV, in years.