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unknownsold13r

The Metal Gauntlet - Preview and rules thread.

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Thanks very much man! I'm going to make some changes. BM is the one large genre that I don't really listen to or have much knowledge about. Neither my friends or I knew much at all about it, back in the day when we first got into thrash and death and whatever else back in high school. And since then, I just didn't really get into it. But I still don't want to put up misinformation in this post, because people are looking to this post, and I don't want to get shit wrong or mislead people, especially in a large genre. And certainly not since right now this gauntlet is more of a Sam Dunn-esque metal tree than a tournament since it hasn't started yet.

 

I'm going to add some of those names. Does Sacrofago just include the early Sepultura singer or did like the Cavalera's play in that band too? I'm trying to keep most entries separate, since Sepultura is already in. But it is based off of their later stuff given that I put them in the Groovy thrash block, hehe.

 

What would you suggest for third wave? Is there an official third wave? If not, then who are all these BM bands that people write reviews for that I've never even heard of?

 

Sir Lord Baltimore... now that is a name I am 100% unfamiliar with and they are American too. Piqued my interest, so I had to look them up. From what I'm seeing they are actually from NY not Baltimore, lol. Either way they probably should be in the proto-metal group, even though they are somewhat obscure. I'm listening to what I could find of them on YT right now, they are pretty cool. They have a bit of a Deep Purple type of sound but more raw and free form.

 

As for Fun. Doom... Skepticism, they totally slipped my mind. I thought about adding Thergothon, but I'm pretty sure everyone else in my block was still touring and those guys split up a while back. Not that that matters really, but narrowing shit down to 6 names is tough and I use trivial reasons at times. Hierophant missed that list for the same reason. And Catacombs could have taken it's place, but I'm pretty sure dude still only has one full album under that name so far.

I half expected you to suggest Mournful Congregation. They are pretty solid, but not real known.

 

Thanks again for the input.

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Well All That Remains was metalcore, but they glossed up their sound a bit with some of their newer releases. That's sort of splitting hairs though as it's a band that I honestly don't think would go real far no matter what block they were in.

 

C'mon Assault, you have a lot of knowledge when it comes to metal, I was kinda hoping you could help me out some with that one empty bracket I have up there.

 

And the stuff I need help with overall is tougher calls than where to put All that Remains.

Such as:

Is Biohazard truly crossover thrash? I wasn't sure. So I just randomly worked that into a conversation that was about music already with a fellow metalhead buddy. He seemed to think they were. I thought of them as more just kind of straight metal but with some hardcore style lyrics and themes.

 

Where is Down (supergroup)??? Kidding, you have a respectable amount of bands already. Hell, I think even Alter Bridge is considered progressive metal in some places.

 

Do you plan on wrapping this up by 2014? :P

 

Oh lol, I remember the Supergroup discussions we had. :lol:

 

And I hope that I can wrap this up before 2014... though I'm about to check up on my family lineage, just to make sure it was not my ancestors who built the Titanic, otherwise we might have a pattern developing here. I think I may have outdone myself.

 

Plus, it just has to finish before 2014, because there isn't going to be a 2014 or a 2013. Dick Clark died, which means the Mayans were right, because no one else can count us down to the new year. :shifty:

 

Well dude when i read this topic it was after i just got home from seeing Rings of Saturn, Aborted, Decrepit Birth, Cattle Decapitation and Origin so i was tired so don't kill me. Biohazard isn't crossover Thrash there way different then bands like D.R.I. and Suicidal Tendencies.

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My bad, how was that show?

 

That's what I initially thought with Bio.

 

Pretty good show for a Tuesday night pick up a couple of Origin Cds. Don't get why Bio gets class as Crossover Thrash.

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I switched them out and replaced them with Crumbsuckers. Not sure if they are too hardcore punk though.

I changed a bunch of stuff.

 

I think it's the lyrics that made me consider Biohazard there. I hadn't heard Biohazard in quite a long while, but I just recently heard a single by them called Vengeance is Mine or something like that. It certainly wasn't crossover thrash, but then again neither is modern Corrosion of Conformity either, but yet they were one of the top crossover bands.

The lyrics of Biohazard always seemed kind of punk inspired. I had my doubts though, even ran it by someone too, just out of the blue and they said "yeah".

But I'll take your word over his on it though.

 

That's cool bout the show. I vaguely remember... I think it was you posting up some concert footage of an Origin show here before. How were the openers? The only one I'm familiar with is cattle decapitation.

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I switched them out and replaced them with Crumbsuckers. Not sure if they are too hardcore punk though.

I changed a bunch of stuff.

 

I think it's the lyrics that made me consider Biohazard there. I hadn't heard Biohazard in quite a long while, but I just recently heard a single by them called Vengeance is Mine or something like that. It certainly wasn't crossover thrash, but then again neither is modern Corrosion of Conformity either, but yet they were one of the top crossover bands.

The lyrics of Biohazard always seemed kind of punk inspired. I had my doubts though, even ran it by someone too, just out of the blue and they said "yeah".

But I'll take your word over his on it though.

 

That's cool bout the show. I vaguely remember... I think it was you posting up some concert footage of an Origin show here before. How were the openers? The only one I'm familiar with is cattle decapitation.

 

Could have put Cryptic Slaughter or Cro-Mags.

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I switched them out and replaced them with Crumbsuckers. Not sure if they are too hardcore punk though.

I changed a bunch of stuff.

 

I think it's the lyrics that made me consider Biohazard there. I hadn't heard Biohazard in quite a long while, but I just recently heard a single by them called Vengeance is Mine or something like that. It certainly wasn't crossover thrash, but then again neither is modern Corrosion of Conformity either, but yet they were one of the top crossover bands.

The lyrics of Biohazard always seemed kind of punk inspired. I had my doubts though, even ran it by someone too, just out of the blue and they said "yeah".

But I'll take your word over his on it though.

 

That's cool bout the show. I vaguely remember... I think it was you posting up some concert footage of an Origin show here before. How were the openers? The only one I'm familiar with is cattle decapitation.

 

Could have put Cryptic Slaughter or Cro-Mags.

 

Cro-Mags. Did not even think of them. Not real familiar with Cryptic Slaughter though. Are they better than Cro-Mags in your opinion?

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I switched them out and replaced them with Crumbsuckers. Not sure if they are too hardcore punk though.

I changed a bunch of stuff.

 

I think it's the lyrics that made me consider Biohazard there. I hadn't heard Biohazard in quite a long while, but I just recently heard a single by them called Vengeance is Mine or something like that. It certainly wasn't crossover thrash, but then again neither is modern Corrosion of Conformity either, but yet they were one of the top crossover bands.

The lyrics of Biohazard always seemed kind of punk inspired. I had my doubts though, even ran it by someone too, just out of the blue and they said "yeah".

But I'll take your word over his on it though.

 

That's cool bout the show. I vaguely remember... I think it was you posting up some concert footage of an Origin show here before. How were the openers? The only one I'm familiar with is cattle decapitation.

 

Could have put Cryptic Slaughter or Cro-Mags.

 

Cro-Mags. Did not even think of them. Not real familiar with Cryptic Slaughter though. Are they better than Cro-Mags in your opinion?

 

Hmm i don't know i like both bands but it depends on you if you think there better then Cro-Mags.

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Going with Cro-Mags for right now based on name recognition. Might change it later.

 

What I like about the crossover block is that I think almost any 3 bands in it could win it. Some of the other thrash blocks are rather top heavy, but not too much that can be done about that. I mean when 3 of the Big 4 fit neatly into one thrash block, those will likely be the 3 that win easy.

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Going with Cro-Mags for right now based on name recognition. Might change it later.

 

What I like about the crossover block is that I think almost any 3 bands in it could win it. Some of the other thrash blocks are rather top heavy, but not too much that can be done about that. I mean when 3 of the Big 4 fit neatly into one thrash block, those will likely be the 3 that win easy.

 

Alright go with the Cro-Mags on the Crossover list.

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Put Watain in 3rd wave Black metal, and replace that slot with Burzum for 2nd wave. Also add to the ?????? slot in First Wave Black Metal with Venom. I know Venom is actually pretty much thrash/nwobhm but it had tremendous impact on Black metal more than any other whether you want to get technical about it or not. Also they were much dirtier, controversial, and evil than other nwobhm/speed metal bands in the early 80s.

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Okay cool, I had Venom in there to begin with. Took em out, didn't know really where to put them. Putting Venom in NWOBHM with Maiden and Motorhead would have set up another 3 definite winners/3 definite losers type of bracket and I try to avoid those, since a number of brackets can be wide open or just have 1 or 2 gimmies.

 

Also, I'll put Burzum in 2nd wave. Not to go off topic, but I've always wondered this? What do Mayhem fans think of Burzum and if they respect them, why? Like we all know that Kurt Cobain killed himself. But what if in some bizzarro-land alternate universe, What if Krist Novoselic off'd himself instead of Cobain, and then a session bassist from like the Screaming Trees or Green River or any grunge band replaced him, but then that guy murdered Cobain. Who would continue to listen to and support the band that said bassist came from amongst the grunge community... in that alternate dimension??

 

 

Also Stacio, I put Sabbath in Doom because they invented it. And the other bands in that category all draw very heavy inspiration from Sabbath and quite frequently sound like early Sabbath. Every band in that Psychedelic Doom block is pretty old school. Sure, I could put Black Sabbath in the Classic Heavy Metal block alongside Priest, but I wanted to try to avoid putting any combo of Sabbath, Priest and Maiden in the same block. If I put those 3 in any block, then there is no need for a 4-6 in their block.

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Okay cool, I had Venom in there to begin with. Took em out, didn't know really where to put them. Putting Venom in NWOBHM with Maiden and Motorhead would have set up another 3 definite winners/3 definite losers type of bracket and I try to avoid those, since a number of brackets can be wide open or just have 1 or 2 gimmies.

 

Also, I'll put Burzum in 2nd wave. Not to go off topic, but I've always wondered this? What do Mayhem fans think of Burzum and if they respect them, why? Like we all know that Kurt Cobain killed himself. But what if in some bizzarro-land alternate universe, What if Krist Novoselic off'd himself instead of Cobain, and then a session bassist from like the Screaming Trees or Green River or any grunge band replaced him, but then that guy murdered Cobain. Who would continue to listen to and support the band that said bassist came from amongst the grunge community... in that alternate dimension??

 

 

Also Stacio, I put Sabbath in Doom because they invented it. And the other bands in that category all draw very heavy inspiration from Sabbath and quite frequently sound like early Sabbath. Every band in that Psychedelic Doom block is pretty old school. Sure, I could put Black Sabbath in the Classic Heavy Metal block alongside Priest, but I wanted to try to avoid putting any combo of Sabbath, Priest and Maiden in the same block. If I put those 3 in any block, then there is no need for a 4-6 in their block.

 

Well, to be fair.. Isn't the point sort of to find the best of the genre? Not to put someone in a genre when they would sit better in a different one, just 'cause some bands wouldn't stand a chance?

 

Could have an innovators tab, maybe. Sabbath pioneered metal more than doom, other than Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath from the album Black Sabbath, I can't think of any tracks I'd categorise as doom before I'd say it's classic.

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Also, I'll put Burzum in 2nd wave. Not to go off topic, but I've always wondered this? What do Mayhem fans think of Burzum and if they respect them, why? Like we all know that Kurt Cobain killed himself. But what if in some bizzarro-land alternate universe, What if Krist Novoselic off'd himself instead of Cobain, and then a session bassist from like the Screaming Trees or Green River or any grunge band replaced him, but then that guy murdered Cobain. Who would continue to listen to and support the band that said bassist came from amongst the grunge community... in that alternate dimension??

 

 

You have to do your research with the whole scene, I can't really explain it but Norway is nothing like Seattle. It's a very different scene with very different personalities, morals, and viewpoints. There isn't too many people I know, or heard of who like black metal that like Mayhem but hate Burzum, they might think Varg Vikernes as a person is stupid for what he did, but Euronymous wasn't exactly normal either, so I'm not sure but it doesn't really have an effect on the Music. If this were to happen to the grunge scene I'm sure things would be quite different, especially the success of Nirvana, and the entire grunge movement of the 90's would have been altered significantly, and probably not for the better because I'm sure minority groups, and goverment funded committees would try to get records taken off store shelves even more then any tried initially.

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Well, to be fair.. Isn't the point sort of to find the best of the genre? Not to put someone in a genre when they would sit better in a different one, just 'cause some bands wouldn't stand a chance?

 

Could have an innovators tab, maybe. Sabbath pioneered metal more than doom, other than Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath from the album Black Sabbath, I can't think of any tracks I'd categorise as doom before I'd say it's classic.

 

Yeah therein lies my problem, my catch 22

 

Hindsight being 20/20

I could have, should have, would've used a different, and generic format.

 

Bracket IV

Block B

bands 1-6

 

but instead I wanted to do genres

Thrash Bracket

Bay Area Blcok

bands 1-6

 

In the first example, I could put 6 random bands from any genre in it. But in the second one I have to get it correct and hopefully make it balanced too. As much as I stressed that this could help people find new music, the primary goal was always to set up a balanced tournament. I don't hate the idea of an innovators tab though.

 

Also I'd argue that they have a few more doom songs beyond just Black Sabbath. It depends on what type of Doom. Stoner rock had existed before Master of Reality but since Sabbath pioneered metal in general, Master of Reality by default becomes like the first real stoner metal album. One of my all time favorite albums btw.

 

What 6 bands would you put in the innovators block?

 

 

Hey, I just thought of a wacky idea!! What if instead of having divisional winners... blocks played each other like teams, with 1-6 vs 1-6 in order. Actually it would have to be 1-5 or 1-7 though to avoid ties. You vote for who u like best out of each 1 vs 1 matchup within the block vs block battle. Similar block vs similar block at first, but eventually we would have weird match ups between radically different genres. Genre blocks with a clean sweep would get a high seed the next round and genre blocks with a narrow win would get a low seed.

This type of tourny might spark a lot of animosity though and would be the most bizarre tournament ever. Plus the innovators block would probably ultimately win. Plus the whole thing would just pit fans of different stuff against each other.

^^Now I'm not saying that is a good idea, maybe it is cool, maybe it's awful, I don't even know, but it's an idea none the less.

 

You have to do your research with the whole scene, I can't really explain it but Norway is nothing like Seattle. It's a very different scene with very different personalities, morals, and viewpoints. There isn't too many people I know, or heard of who like black metal that like Mayhem but hate Burzum, they might think Varg Vikernes as a person is stupid for what he did, but Euronymous wasn't exactly normal either, so I'm not sure but it doesn't really have an effect on the Music. If this were to happen to the grunge scene I'm sure things would be quite different, especially the success of Nirvana, and the entire grunge movement of the 90's would have been altered significantly, and probably not for the better because I'm sure minority groups, and goverment funded committees would try to get records taken off store shelves even more then any tried initially.

 

I gotcha. Well explained man, and the grunge thing might not be the best comparison, but that's what I came up with. Really any scene could work in a loose comparison though. I picked grunge because many of it's fans (before it exploded into the mainstream) were very anti-establishment as well. I get that the fans of the scene as it happened in Norway probably had dif morals. But you're an American fan of BM, and likely a fan of the Norwegian scene. Nothing wrong with that, but the point is that you grew up presumably with American ideals of law & justice like the rest of us. I'm not even talking morality... I just mean simple crime and punishment. Now controversy nearly always elevates a band. Take Filthy 15 list for example, it only served to make those 15 bands way more known and popular than they were. But the Varg incident crosses the line. That's not mere controversy, that's homicide. I think and hope that if an incident like that happened anywhere in America, that most fans would throw the guilty party under the bus so to speak and stop supporting them. But I do understand and respect the fact that because that happened a rather long time ago in a foreign land that American fans of that particular scene can distance themselves from it entirely and just listen to the music unbiased by it.

 

For me personally, I never heard of Mayhem until I heard the f*cked up story, a long time ago. And it fish storied to hell and back, which doesn't help. Much more recently I even heard a comedian who worked that story into his stand up act.

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Well the whole "Heavy Metal" section probably needs rework come to think of it. I was pretty satisfied with it as far as a balanced tournament bracket is concerned. But in terms of accuracy, I'll admit it needs work.

 

I mean I did leave a disclaimer in the first post that this is NOT intended as a Sam Dunn style metal tree, but rather that these bracket titles are just that... a bracket title, as opposed to a definitive genre list. But since Hammer wants to put elements of this into the metal thread, and since that may ultimately be what this gauntlet thing that I've made becomes most useful for, then well I do want to rearrange stuff for accuracy, so I do appreciate the help. :cool:

 

Modern Traditional Metal... is really just a phrase I came up with. :lol: I mean hell those words are vague enough to include just about anything. I initially had Mastodon in the Sludge section, but moved them to make more room for some other sludge bands and keep that block more wide open in terms of competition. Most of the other bands in this group technically belong in other genres but I ran out of space in them and wanted to include them. Monster Magnet is stoner rock/metal. Huntress doesn't fit with any of the bands in this block, but I really dig them and couldn't find a home for them in the tourny and felt modern traditional is vague enough to work. A Pale Horse Named Death is Sal Abruscato's (of Type O) latest project. They sound sort of like Type O Negative... which I guess would be classified as Gothic metal. Back when I listened to Type O I never really had a genre in mind that they fit into, but I guess that is where they would fit. Nemesis we just might have a Gothic metal block incoming. I'm glad you mentioned those other bands on page 1.

Black Label Society I feel actually fits the modern traditional label. I mean they are Sabbathy doom inspired but they aren't fully sludge or stoner, they have enough classic & southern rock influences that make them different.

 

So that is my reasoning for all that stuff, but I will scrap that block and put those bands where they better fit. I just don't know how I'll do that quite yet.

 

 

Also, I think I will give this tourny a shot on Monday. I'll begin with the Thrash section since that looks pretty damn good to me right now. And I'll save the brackets that are not close to being finished yet for later.

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Those are some good suggestions! I do have White Wizzard in there somewhere, in whatever label I have for newer power metal bands but I can move stuff around. I'm familiar with Cauldron (if they are the Canadian band I'm thinking of), but not Wolf or Steelwing, but I'll add them too.

 

^ First one in Classic under Doom.

 

I think Lacuna Coil, Static X, and The Gazzette should be on here.

 

I would like to include Lacuna Coil. I just didn't know where to put them that wouldn't set people off. So I'm asking a general question: Where can Lacuna Coil find a spot?

 

Totally forgot about Static X, I shall put them in the Industrial Metal section. The key word also in Industrial metal is metal. Hence why there is no NIN or KMFDM. Most traditional industrial acts are basically computer music (bad term I know) that incorporate elements of rock and metal. But the bands I have in my section are more the other way around... metal bands who incorporate elements of industrial like Fear Factory and Strapping Young Lad. There is no escaping the industrial tag for those bands but they are bands first and foremost, not DJ troupes. Been awhile since I've heard Static X but I believe they fit my criteria.

 

I've never heard of The Gazzette though? Is that spelled correctly. A Gazette like a newspaper is spelled with just one z. Either way, I tried looking them up, but can't find anything about their existence. What kind of metal are they? Who do they sound like roughly?

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