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Ernez

By Ernez
in Entertainment & Media

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Deadwing Midcard

Deadwing

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Posted

^ I planned on waiting for the official release, but I'm listening to it now, I can't help it. I already pre-ordered it a few days ago.

 

I was sorta surprised with the new Gorguts, pretty great comeback album.

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unknownsold13r Legend

unknownsold13r

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I agree with that about Ghost and all other avenues being exhausted. I don't think people can get any faster than the fastest grind bands or any slower than the most slow doom bands or the drone bands.

 

I think that everything, not just metal, is cyclical. You can almost follow it through like a wave. NWOBHM -> Thrash -> DM -> BM. DM and BM became filled with bands wanting to break away from their base style; Enslaved's "Viking Metal", Immortal's (at least initially) "Holocaust Metal" which in turn makes people want to go back to "the way it was" so BM becomes more traditional before that gets exhausted and go back to DM. Like Behemoth's change between their early stuff and the more recent stuff or conversely like bands like Emperor came from Thou Shalt Suffer, Darkthrone's change between Soulside Journey and A Blaze. The same thing happened with thrash with all those party thrash bands which in turn lead to more traditional German style thrash.

 

What is refreshing with Ghost is that they really went back to other origins. It didn't really come from anywhere recent. Maybe more from a mid-70's rock thing like Roky Erickson or the like.

 

Good points, by both you and Hammer about Ghost.

 

Yeah things do tend to be cyclical. But cycles also break off into new cycles. I think part of this topic is innovation vs consistency. You mentioned that IDI was an example of failed innovation. Well, Ghost (despite being an obvious throwback to a long lost era) involves innovation as well. I think we could agree that that is an example of innovation gone right. Blue Oyster Cult worship aside, there is a modernized, slickness to the song writing of Ghost, that many of the actual 70's rock acts (who inspired them) shunned in favor of a more freestyle, jam session type of sound if ya know what I mean. So Ghost is sort of a result of modern conventions applied to classic style. Even though it's echoing the past, I'd still call that innovation.

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unknownsold13r Legend

unknownsold13r

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I don't really agree with that if DM or BM was still DiY in it wouldn't exist in 2013 because I know that it does still exist. In the underground there are even labels, small underground labels, dedicated to just releasing tapes. There are threads on metal message boards dedicated to 'latest tape scores'. Even as the genre expanded there were always small pockets of bands that were still doing it for the underground. That is one of things tape trading taught me.

 

About the different styles, the altered or maybe even expanded styles, to go back to your tombstone piledriver analogy, how many times can someone change the traditional piledriver before you have to stop calling it a piledriver? See for me Traditional, tech, brutal are all hallmarks of DM. DM should be traditional, technical & brutal. Although I am a fan of some Prog, Prog DM never appealed to me. Maybe for me I can't join the dots between the two different genres. Maybe I just missed that boat.

Well you're right that DIY style metal would still exist. But in sort of a "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it" sort of way. Of course some people would hear it... but the genre would still be on life support as a whole. A part of me always thought it would be cool to be a decade or so older, to expirience the 80's and early 90's as an adult when metal ruled the universe! \m/
As for the piledriver analogy. You're right about that, but think of it like this. The root word "driver" is used in a variety of wrestling moves. The pile has been jettisoned because these drivers are too different to call pile drivers. Assaultdriver, :D Death Valley Driver, Barry White Driver. All devastating moves, different than the original, but all great due to innovation. I guess pile-driver could be akin to death-metal. The pile or death part could be removed, but the driver or metal part remains. The thing is, I think more people equate pile-driver to heavy-metal. So with deathmetal being a innovation on more traditional forms of metal that preceeded it, it already is a unique thing, and retains that prefix, in this case death when it again is altered, and innovated into something new, thus adding another prefix.
In terms of what DM "should be". I don't like to pigeon hole things like broad, overarching, music genres into what they should or should not be. That isn't up to you or I to decide. It really just comes down to personal taste. The pigeon holing is more for specific, smaller, subgenres. Something either fits there, or it doesn't, but could still fit into the broader one.
As far as progressive death metal goes. IMO, I like the dynamics of meshing those two worlds together. For me it can be a good blend. Dan Swano's early work like Crimson is something I would hail as a masterwork. When it comes to deathmetal, I'm always on the lookout for the ever elusiive Tiger Driver '91 of the genre. Something that is devastating, technically sound, and just outright beautiful to behold.
For me the tape trading thing was finding new bands. Going through a fanzine and reading a review and thinking it sounded cool and beginning the hunt to find someone who had it then trying to organise something. Or even going through thank you lists on cd's or lp's or interviews and just trying to get whatever I could. It was initially just for dub's but then after getting some dubs some things stood out over the others and I tried to find originals. I found a lot of bands that have been very influential for me this way. Samael (I traded with an infamous Norwegian for an original copy of the first Samael demo tape a bit later on), Master's Hammer (which opened up a lot of Czech bands), Lithuanian bands Anubi & Nahash, French DM like Mutilated or Abyssals. Polish bands like Graveland, Infernum, Mysteries. It's really endless.

 

The thing about Morbid Angel and Covenant, sure it was on a major label, but on the other hand it's for me their most brutal work. It's unrelenting. It doesn't sound overly polished. They didn't tone it down at all. For me it's more like Altars than Blessed. Still a horrible cover but I can forgive that. heh...

 

I'm on the other side of the fence with regards to production values, innovation and all that. It has it's place but for me not in metal. Or at least most of the metal that I like. The striving for innovation is what caused MA's IDI. Sure it might not be what the fans of MA wanted but for me that's the ultimate cause/effect of innovation. They'll just keep trying to merge different styles; rap/metal ala Anthrax/Public Enemy or Morbid Angel with IDI. There's no logical end to it. Bands will just keep on taking disparate styles and try to merge them together in the name of innovation. Sure, maybe there are times when it does work but for me using IDI as a reference point is proof enough that for me it's better to not even try because the end result can be quite catastrophic.

 

 

Though I've only heard of Mutilated and Samael of that group, that is still really cool. Though I may not be as into the deep underground, it's still awesome that metal has that aspect to it.

 

To clarify, I wasn't saying that I personally thought Covenant was a sellout record at all. Rather that someone could make that argument anytime any band joins a major label. Fair or not, it happens. Some people will always hold those beliefs.

 

Well, we all have different tastes. While you're right that innovation has spawned bad things like IDI, and I'll add f'n LULU to that list. I still hold the view that innovation in metal does a whole lot more good than bad. Without any innovation, death and black metal by your own words wouldn't even exist, since they were a reaction to previously created styles of metal.

 

Expirementation is what it is. Some expiriments will go horribly wrong, but when something turns out right and fuses that perfect balance of different genres or styles or sounds, then it makes it all worthwhile. Innovation and potential disastor vs Consistency and potential stagnation are an on going battle in many forms of music. I think that if we were any of the 4 evil Chaos Gods from the Warhammer universe... I would be Tzeentch and you would be Nurgle. :cool:

 

 

Anyways, I f'n talk too much.

 

Since we're talking new Carcass, this has triumphantly been re-uploaded to YT by someone.

 

 

 

 

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Fried Legend

Fried

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I don't really agree with that if DM or BM was still DiY in it wouldn't exist in 2013 because I know that it does still exist. In the underground there are even labels, small underground labels, dedicated to just releasing tapes. There are threads on metal message boards dedicated to 'latest tape scores'. Even as the genre expanded there were always small pockets of bands that were still doing it for the underground. That is one of things tape trading taught me.

 

About the different styles, the altered or maybe even expanded styles, to go back to your tombstone piledriver analogy, how many times can someone change the traditional piledriver before you have to stop calling it a piledriver? See for me Traditional, tech, brutal are all hallmarks of DM. DM should be traditional, technical & brutal. Although I am a fan of some Prog, Prog DM never appealed to me. Maybe for me I can't join the dots between the two different genres. Maybe I just missed that boat.

Well you're right that DIY style metal would still exist. But in sort of a "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it" sort of way. Of course some people would hear it... but the genre would still be on life support as a whole. A part of me always thought it would be cool to be a decade or so older, to expirience the 80's and early 90's as an adult when metal ruled the universe! \m/

 

As for the piledriver analogy. You're right about that, but think of it like this. The root word "driver" is used in a variety of wrestling moves. The pile has been jettisoned because these drivers are too different to call pile drivers. Assaultdriver, :D Death Valley Driver, Barry White Driver. All devastating moves, different than the original, but all great due to innovation. I guess pile-driver could be akin to death-metal. The pile or death part could be removed, but the driver or metal part remains. The thing is, I think more people equate pile-driver to heavy-metal. So with deathmetal being a innovation on more traditional forms of metal that preceeded it, it already is a unique thing, and retains that prefix, in this case death when it again is altered, and innovated into something new, thus adding another prefix.

 

In terms of what DM "should be". I don't like to pigeon hole things like broad, overarching, music genres into what they should or should not be. That isn't up to you or I to decide. It really just comes down to personal taste. The pigeon holing is more for specific, smaller, subgenres. Something either fits there, or it doesn't, but could still fit into the broader one.

 

As far as progressive death metal goes. IMO, I like the dynamics of meshing those two worlds together. For me it can be a good blend. Dan Swano's early work like Crimson is something I would hail as a masterwork. When it comes to deathmetal, I'm always on the lookout for the ever elusiive Tiger Driver '91 of the genre. Something that is devastating, technically sound, and just outright beautiful to behold.

 

For me the tape trading thing was finding new bands. Going through a fanzine and reading a review and thinking it sounded cool and beginning the hunt to find someone who had it then trying to organise something. Or even going through thank you lists on cd's or lp's or interviews and just trying to get whatever I could. It was initially just for dub's but then after getting some dubs some things stood out over the others and I tried to find originals. I found a lot of bands that have been very influential for me this way. Samael (I traded with an infamous Norwegian for an original copy of the first Samael demo tape a bit later on), Master's Hammer (which opened up a lot of Czech bands), Lithuanian bands Anubi & Nahash, French DM like Mutilated or Abyssals. Polish bands like Graveland, Infernum, Mysteries. It's really endless.

 

The thing about Morbid Angel and Covenant, sure it was on a major label, but on the other hand it's for me their most brutal work. It's unrelenting. It doesn't sound overly polished. They didn't tone it down at all. For me it's more like Altars than Blessed. Still a horrible cover but I can forgive that. heh...

 

I'm on the other side of the fence with regards to production values, innovation and all that. It has it's place but for me not in metal. Or at least most of the metal that I like. The striving for innovation is what caused MA's IDI. Sure it might not be what the fans of MA wanted but for me that's the ultimate cause/effect of innovation. They'll just keep trying to merge different styles; rap/metal ala Anthrax/Public Enemy or Morbid Angel with IDI. There's no logical end to it. Bands will just keep on taking disparate styles and try to merge them together in the name of innovation. Sure, maybe there are times when it does work but for me using IDI as a reference point is proof enough that for me it's better to not even try because the end result can be quite catastrophic.

Though I've only heard of Mutilated and Samael of that group, that is still really cool. Though I may not be as into the deep underground, it's still awesome that metal has that aspect to it.

 

To clarify, I wasn't saying that I personally thought Covenant was a sellout record at all. Rather that someone could make that argument anytime any band joins a major label. Fair or not, it happens. Some people will always hold those beliefs.

 

Well, we all have different tastes. While you're right that innovation has spawned bad things like IDI, and I'll add f'n LULU to that list. I still hold the view that innovation in metal does a whole lot more good than bad. Without any innovation, death and black metal by your own words wouldn't even exist, since they were a reaction to previously created styles of metal.

 

Expirementation is what it is. Some expiriments will go horribly wrong, but when something turns out right and fuses that perfect balance of different genres or styles or sounds, then it makes it all worthwhile. Innovation and potential disastor vs Consistency and potential stagnation are an on going battle in many forms of music. I think that if we were any of the 4 evil Chaos Gods from the Warhammer universe... I would be Tzeentch and you would be Nurgle. :cool:

 

 

Anyways, I f'n talk too much.

 

Since we're talking new Carcass, this has triumphantly been re-uploaded to YT by someone.

 

I enjoy reading your posts and our exchange here. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this issue but nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Some Metallica movie or something?

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HellHammer Hall of Famer

HellHammer

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^Don't know where you heard that, but that would be awesome if true. Dark Angel imo represented the height of Thrash in the late 80's, early 90's on a brutal, and technical scale. I think some of the new wave Thrash bands lack the intensity those guys had, then again they didn't have Gene Hoglan. I would love to hear some Leave Scars Tunes with modern production.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H1WM2JmFfg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq_K5rMY3qw

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Fried Legend

Fried

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For V.V who in a few hours will be fronting in court for a hearing regarding if he will be expelled for being "a threat the national security of France".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyRUbC6F_Uc

 

also Master's Hammer are releasing all their demos on CD officially and have also put them on their webpage with all the old demo covers and pictures from that era.

http://www.mastershammer.com/demos.htm

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