WWE All Stars Roster - The Definitive Final "Why"

[THQ Tank]

Hey everyone,

Now that our WWE All Stars has been completely revealed (including most of our DLC), as expected, the debates and heat rage over who made the final cut. I wanted to take a moment to friendly re-inform/educate you on how this process works when we are making SmackDown vs Raw, WWE All Stars, any WWE wrestling game from THQ. I can't speak for other past publishers that created WWE games, I can only speak for THQ...past, present, and future.

The science behind our roster selection process is simple on the outside, and incredibly deep on the inside. What do I mean? Everyone needs to remember that WE (THQ) are LICENSING WWE PROPERTY to create authentic and official WWE wrestling video games for you. Like any licensee relationship, if it's not your own intellectual property, you don't have freewill to govern how you will use it.

Second, the WWE is a Universe, and it's an ever-changing one week to week, day by day, month to month, pay-per-view to Raw to SmackDown to Wrestlemania. You just never know what's gonna happen next, and that is why YOU and I and the rest of us crazy WWE fans watch week after week. With that in mind, we can make our best predictions who a fan-favorite will be, who will be getting a "push", who is on the rise, and who just flat out SHOULD be in a WWE videogame, but because things change so rapidly, we can't control these elements fully in RESPECT of our game development cycles.

Finally, the time and resources it takes to create a WRESTLER in SmackDown vs Raw or All Stars is roughly 1-month of MAN HOURS - that takes in to account design, animation, AI, regression testing, QA testing, and final polish. The All Stars roster is not as big as SmackDown vs Raw namely because it's a different style of game and equally because of the development process involved in making each character.

[b]The above boils down to a few ending results when we create our gameplay rosters:[/b]

1. We HAVE to work hand-in-hand with the WWE on the selection process, and more often than not we are agreeing eye to eye and considering the same Superstars/Legends, etc for a game. But at the end of the day, the WWE has the final say on who makes the cut, and while there may be times we disagree like any good business and creative relationship, we respect one another, and more importantly, respect that this is the WWE's Universe, and we are a huge meteor size part of it. There are wrestlers in our past and present WWE games who were not on our original proposed lists but were for WWE, and thus, we respect that and work together to achieve our mutual goals. Alberto Del Rio, for example, when we locked the WWE All Stars roster down eons ago, he was nowhere near a Wrestlemania "enigma", and while we did consider him for DLC as soon as a couple weeks ago, due to time and resources this late, we are unable to make it happen this go-around.

2. And mentioning Alberto Del Rio is the same scenario as to why Daniel Bryan didn't make it into SVR 2011 or why The Corre hasn't been added as DLC. Because WWE TV programming can change on a dime. Unlike simulation sports from EA, 2K, or Sony where it's easy enough to switch player uniforms, adding alternate attire and ESPECIALLY new CHARACTERS to the game via DLC or last-minute before ship because the TV programming changed and suddenly someone is the new "Rock" of the WWE, is near impossible for us when we are locked. We are looking in to ways to address this in the future with our development processes, but it's a monumental task to stay 100% current with WWE TV programming, just about impossible.

We will always do our best, but it should never be expected that our WWE games will be 100% current with WWE TV. Game development doesn't work that way unfortunately when you're dealing with INDIVIDUAL UNIQUE characters (same goes for UFC Undisputed).

The bottom line is WWE Games Community, whether or not your favorite Superstar or Legend made it into WWE All Stars or makes it in to our next SmackDown vs Raw 2012, know this, WE ALWAYS take the community and WWE universe popularity into account, the niche hardcore favorites (HELLO Animal and Hawk in All Stars is bad-ass), WWE TV programming most importantly, and will always do our best to appease you. Mentioning the word "lazy" or "uncaring" in any criticism against us on how our rosters shape out is simply misunderstanding the process we are locked by as a game developer making AAA wrestling games that incredibly authentic to the WWE Universe.

I encourage debate and constructive criticism when rosters are revealed, but I urge you to understand how our development process works before you do.

WWE All Stars arguably has the greatest Superstars/Legend combined roster of all time, and even though it is missing some of the greatest of all-time and current favorites, collectively, it's one helluva an amazing roster. The final decision to PLAY is in your hands. If ya ask me, the inclusion of Macho Man alone is worth smiling about =)

[img]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2186/13257610100111684904384.jpg[/img]

[theclosetfan]

Thanks for the insight, Tank. Can't wait to try out the game for myself.

[SNOOP 33O]

The roster is awesome. It doesn't matter who gets put in the game some people are just miserable. They will complain and hate no matter what. Games are suppose to be fun and if the game play is as good as the roster. I will have a great time playing this game.

[RavenKing2008]

Yes... thanks for the insight. While I disagree that this is the best legend/superstar roster (other legend games did it better), I understand that WWE dictates who is in and who is out.

However, I still feel that you guys don't understand that when a developer has a BAD/UNEASY track record with their consumers, yet still continue making the same decisions and/or not making a stand with their licensing partners to possibly make it the player's universe with WWE wrestlers in the title and not the licensing partner's universe, meaning WWE structured commentary, movesets, RtWM, etc.

The "lazy" and "uncaring" comments came again, from THQ's track record with making decisions and/or accepting decisions that seem to the consumer to be shortcuts or to save time instead of making for a quality game. EA and 2k Sports seem to have found the right formula for making the same game with the same engine by perfecting the engine years ago while having superior production quality compared to the Smackdown vs RAW franchise. This game is a wait and see...

Again, I thank you for the insight, but this ultimately points to why many feel extending your development cycle is needed and also a demo for feedback. It really just seems like you guys forget that you're losing money every year with the SvR franchise, so you guys aren't doing something right.

This game seems good and looks good on paper. Will it play good or is it another hype machine like 2011 is the true test...

[StevieHWWE]

The roster is pretty decent for All Stars.... but only once you buy all of the DLC that's coming out. That's completely unfair to be charging for these extra characters.

[matt776]

[quote name='StevieHWWE' timestamp='1298746887' post='7936896']
The roster is pretty decent for All Stars.... but only once you buy all of the DLC that's coming out. That's completely unfair to be charging for these extra characters.
[/quote]

Well if you don't like it don't buy it simple, plus they have not aannouced what price the dlc will be so wait and see. Extra work goes into making the dlc I would rather have it in than not to have it at all.

[theclosetfan]

[quote name='RavenKing2008' timestamp='1298746657' post='7936883']
However, I still feel that you guys don't understand that when a developer has a BAD/UNEASY track record with their consumers, yet still continue making the same decisions and/or not making a stand with their licensing partners to possibly make it the player's universe with WWE wrestlers in the title and not the licensing partner's universe, meaning WWE structured commentary, movesets, RtWM, etc.
[/quote]

These are the kind of complaints that really aren't constructive at all. As long as WWE is financing these games, they are going to be WWE products, through and through. Go ask every company that's made a football game since EA got exclusive rights to the NFL how the whole lack-of-a-license thing worked out for them. Go ask Agetec how much of a profit Fire Pro Wrestling Returns made--a game that gives complete control to the player. Unless you want to to foot the bill for your ideal wrestling game, then you have to deal with the WWE's decisions

[DroStudios]

Nice Article you did here Tank. Pretty much explaining what you or others have said before but people still dont get it.

I wanna know why Cody Rhodes is a DLC though? I think he should have been in the game originally. I was just wondering if the same thing happened with Cody Rhodes that happened with Layla where you guys wanted to make a better model so stuck him on DLC?

"Dashing" Cody Rhodes I hope?!

[HabsFan]

Thank you THQ Tank for explaining this to us and answering some of the questions we had.But You didn't answer a few that I have posed on this forum.1 Do you not think with a 30 character roster on the disc and having us pay for 12 DLC characters is a little excessive?That is almost one third of the roster we have to pay extra for.2 Does THQ and the WWE share in the profits of the game or do you pay them a licensing fee up front and THQ makes it's money back from sales?Because if you share in the profits then certainly someone from the WWE has to know that putting a guy in the game like Michael Hayes isn't going to be making you more sales.3 How many Legends did you at THQ try to get before Vince forced you to put Michael Hayes in the game?Because many of us would have gone as low as to take Tatanka in the game over him.4 Is there any debate with THQ and Vince about characters in the game?Or is it Vince said no lets move on to the next name.5 It has been said that THQ worked out the deal with Randy Savage,did THQ have to convince Vince into agreeing or was the WWE open to it?And could you please make a deal to get the Demolition in future WWE games.6 Goes back to the DLC you can't honestly tell us that these characters aren't already completed.Dusty Rhodes and Cody Rhodes were talking about their characters 9 months ago,so even by going with your 1 month to complete a character they should already have be done a long time before the game was completed.So why are they DLCS?Answer that honestly and this community would have alot more respect for you THQ.

[THQ Tank]

I'm not gonna try and beat around the bush here, many of you are probably MVC3 fans I'd imagine and are aware of their DLC plans, and are aware of some of the criticism against, case in point:

http://www.gamesradar.com/xbox360/marvel-vs-capcom-3-fate-of-two-worlds/news/capcom-on-marvel-vs-capcom-3-dlc-characters-deal-with-it/a-20101124115056427089/g-20100419113534920006

There are some very valid points in there especially because in a fighting game, the roster is everything.

I will however provide a little defense and further explanation from our standpoint. There is absolutely no doubt that the current video game industry-wide DLC business model drives incremental revenue...potentially. Your game has to be a profitable success first, making games is getting more expensive day by day, don't underestimate that point. To some extent, successful DLC is also what helps give breathing room for future product development.

In the case of WWE All Stars, first off, if you pre-order, which again is technically FREE to do and you can always back-out, we're giving you The Million Dollar Man and Ted DiBiase Jr. That is more of a thank-you to our Day 1 buyers than anything, which should really be you, our hardcore community. If you think about it, that's a significant pre-order, it's not a card pack, t-shirt, or poster, or some gimmick plastic Macho Man sunglasses, it's two fully loaded fully playable extremely detailed as the rest bonus characters. SO, pre-order =)

With the DLC, our roster is 40+ characters. This game is FEATURE and more importantly COMBAT deep fellas SVR has more features and match types, a deeper CAS system, but it's a different type of game (a simulation with those expectations), but for an arcade fighter, there is a ton of depth in WWE All Stars that you haven't seen yet. Full single-player story mode, fantasy warfare, different match types (you know about steel cage), online play, and yes, a FULL CAS system. Name another arcade fighter with that much and a bag of chips, the list is short I guarantee you. Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, and Marvel vs Capcom own this space, but their full rosters net out between 30-40, and you can't create your own fighter in a 2D arcade game, hehe.

I definitely understand your opinion about DLC. On one hand, it is a business model, on the other hand, and a lot of times more-so, the development team simply doesn't have time to incorporate everything by release. WWE All Stars is done and just about ready to hit the copy press, but the team is now working on the DLC, perfecting and polishing. They won't be watered down, they will be full blown characters, and I will go on record saying Dusty Rhodes hands down will be the funnest and funniest wrestler in the game, hands down.

I don't think you're paying for 1/4 of the full roster, because the full roster are the 30 guys (+ the pre-order Million Dollar Pack), but the perception is easy to understand and sympathize with.

At the end of the day, making games isn't free, and more importantly post-launch servicing games isn't free. We will always do our best to price our DLC at a fair cost, and when and where we can, if we can provide free DLC, we will. We do have something left up our sleeve that could help soften your angst here a bit.

I don't want to give the excuse that we're just following the industry standard of DLC practices, but the DLC we will be offering post-launch are the characters the dev team is spending as much time on as the rest of the roster and will make sure are of top quality. I saw Dusty Rhodes in-progress this past week, he has every bit of shake and rumble and elbow droppin attitude, it's simply awesome.

Don't compare roster sizes of WWE All Stars and SmackDown vs Raw, two completely different games with very different technology and design components. No top level Arcade fighter has 70+ fighters.

BTW, you guys would find it real interesting to see the metrics of wrestlers played for SVR. The difference between the top 25 and the rest is pretty wide. At some point, you have to ask yourself, when is it too much? I'd rather have a game where I want to play as EVERY WRESTLER because they are unique and movesets are completely different. I think you'll be surprised how deep and hardcore WWE All Stars is, I really do. Give it a chance.

I am bringing back Inside the Ring later this week, that'll definitely enlighten!

Dusty and Cody Rhodes will be apart of DLC Pack #1. Beyond that, I can't speak to the separation of everyone else.

-Tank

[Dazman™]

Thanks for posting this article Tank, the roster seems pretty decent to me anyway.

[matt776]

Thanks Tank well said, you are right about the roster I see it as quality over quantity each wrestler that has been shown so far has a different feel and importantly unique moves you don't see repeated.

[Alex.]

Tank. You sure know how to settle the community !

[buddyboy101]

Thanks Tank! Can you give us details about the DLC:

1.) What is the release schedule?
2.) Can you buy wrestlers individually?
3.) If you can only buy in packs, and you pre-order, do you get a discount on the first pack since you already have access to the DiBiases?
4.) Will DiBiases be available on day 1?

Thanks!

[marinofan]

Thanks Tank! I have been critical but I see your point and I will take quality over quantity. This game is looking real fresh and awesome. The only thing I would ask is please don't take forever in releasing all the dlc.

[Alex.]

[quote name='buddyboy101' timestamp='1298764592' post='7937335']
Thanks Tank! Can you give us details about the DLC:

1.) What is the release schedule?
2.) Can you buy wrestlers individually?
[b]3.) If you can only buy in packs, and you pre-order, do you get a discount on the first pack since you already have access to the DiBiases?
[/b]4.) Will DiBiases be available on day 1?

Thanks!
[/quote]

It'll most likely be separately and I'd imagine each person'll be 80MSP but that's a real good question for him.

[THQ Tank]

The first wave of DLC and The Million Dollar Pack will be released within the first month of the game. That is all I can discuss at this point. Dev team is working tirelessly and burning the midnight oil polishing and perfecting them. The upside of the Million Dollar pre-order is, hell, you get two free high quality characters...

The slight negative is you have to wait a short bit after release, but we are very much on target for a first month release, and not on the final day of the month either =)

We'll have more details on the DLC release schedule in the coming weeks, i'm not gonna make promises I can't deliver on today.

Besides, you'll have 30 wrestlers to master before you can even think about The Million Dollar Man and Ted DiBiase.

Yo "TheAlex", sick signature man, love that, makin the Hulkamaniacs proud.

You guys have never had real god honest bad ass highly experienced Community Managers before, and now you have Marcus Stephenson and I. The past is the past, history no mystery, the future is everything. I don't live in the past, I chuck it out the frakkin window, and then I build some damn good new foundations.

-Tank

[DroStudios]

[quote name='THQ Tank' timestamp='1298762765' post='7937299']
[b]Dusty and Cody Rhodes will be apart of DLC Pack #1. Beyond that, I can't speak to the separation of everyone else.[/b]
[/quote]

Thats all I needed. Now all i need is a date & I'll most likely buy the game before the first DLC comes out ( a day or two LOL)

[buddyboy101]

[quote name='THQ Tank' timestamp='1298765491' post='7937351']
The first wave of DLC and The Million Dollar Pack will be released within the first month of the game. That is all I can discuss at this point. Dev team is working tirelessly and burning the midnight oil polishing and perfecting them. The upside of the Million Dollar pre-order is, hell, you get two free high quality characters...
[/quote]

If we're getting DiBiases for FREE by pre-ordering, then either DLC1 will be discounted prorata (as a pack) or the wrestlers will purchased on an individual basis. Good news either way.

[Alex.]

[quote name='THQ Tank' timestamp='1298765491' post='7937351']
The first wave of DLC and The Million Dollar Pack will be released within the first month of the game. That is all I can discuss at this point. Dev team is working tirelessly and burning the midnight oil polishing and perfecting them. The upside of the Million Dollar pre-order is, hell, you get two free high quality characters...

The slight negative is you have to wait a short bit after release, [b]but we are very much on target for a first month release, and not on the final day of the month either [/b]=)

We'll have more details on the DLC release schedule in the coming weeks, i'm not gonna make promises I can't deliver on today.

Besides, you'll have 30 wrestlers to master before you can even think about The Million Dollar Man and Ted DiBiase.

Yo "TheAlex", sick signature man, love that, makin the Hulkamaniacs proud.

You guys have never had real god honest bad ass highly experienced Community Managers before, and now you have Marcus Stephenson and I. The past is the past, history no mystery, the future is everything. I don't live in the past, I chuck it out the frakkin window, and then I build some damn good new foundations.

-Tank
[/quote]

It would be awesome if you guys worked hard and got it released on WrestleMania or the tuesday after.

[animalz07]

Tank thanks for posting there has been feedback on All-Stars and Future of "Smackdown vs Raw 2012"that we would hope you address on caws.ws and other sites hopefully we can hear from you and Marcus more often but I understand with All-Stars out your tied up but afterward I hope to hear from you and what you think of our ideas.

For example I really would like to know if things from WWE All-Stars like sounds from hitting the mat, sound of the crowd, move selling, and more...can be included in smackdown vs raw 2012? I think it would be nice to have things like that imagine Swagger having a more realistic ankle lock like in All-Stars with him putting pressure on the twist of the ankle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeuhnyntl0w

Thanks Tank many of us appreciate the THQ and arre glad at the effort being made to reach out to the community. So for that I thank you

Animalz07

[Shiftygism]

[quote name='THQ Tank' timestamp='1298743184' post='7936789']
We HAVE to work hand-in-hand with the WWE on the selection process, and more often than not we are agreeing eye to eye and considering the same Superstars/Legends, etc for a game. But at the end of the day, the WWE has the final say on who makes the cut, and while there may be times we disagree like any good business and creative relationship, we respect one another, and more importantly, respect that this is the WWE's Universe, and we are a huge meteor size part of it. There are wrestlers in our past and present WWE games who were not on our original proposed lists but were for WWE, and thus, we respect that and work together to achieve our mutual goals.[/quote]

With as many great superstars that the WWE has given us over the years, there's always gonna be guys that don't make the cut, but I, like many folks (not just here at CAWs.ws) are terribly disappointed that Yokozuna didn't make it in. All Stars, is a game he's be perfect for, especially considering you wouldn't need realistic weight mechanics for him to work properly as you would if he were to appear in SvR. That and the fact he was the top/one of the top heels in the company for a better part of the 90's. There's a gigantic void in the roster without him (no pun intended).

I doubt you'd answer this, or even dignify this post, but I gotta ask, why didn't he make it in? Because he is someone that should've and could've been in there (unlike other popular guys of that period like Diesel and Razor). You can't lay all of the "blame" on the WWE determining the final roster when we don't know who THQ had on the list they presented to them.

So who aren't fans of The Mighty Yokozuna in this equation? THQ or the WWE?

Also, since we aren't getting him (unless there's some surprise DLC in the works), will the CAS mode allow for a reasonable fan made version in the area of girth?

Can we make fatties?

I mean [i]super fat fatties[/i]?

And is there a sumo belt included?

[Alex.]

I think all we can do is wait until all the DLC is announced until we can assume the likes of Yokozuna and Goldust are not in.

[CAWVD]

THQTank thank you for the insight into how the roster is created, I was wondering could you tell us the process of creating moves and which moves get removed and what stays ? SVR2011 was one of the weakest when it came to moves and many moves was removed that many fans wanted. Shouldn't the moves stay in whether they were reanimated or not knowing all fans have different taste ? The more option the better.

[burb]

[quote name='animalz07' timestamp='1298769314' post='7937448']
Tank thanks for posting there has been feedback on All-Stars and Future of "Smackdown vs Raw 2012"that we would hope you address on caws.ws and other sites hopefully we can hear from you and Marcus more often but I understand with All-Stars out your tied up but afterward I hope to hear from you and what you think of our ideas.

For example I really would like to know if things from WWE All-Stars like sounds from hitting the mat, sound of the crowd, move selling, and more...can be included in smackdown vs raw 2012? I think it would be nice to have things like that imagine Swagger having a more realistic ankle lock like in All-Stars with him putting pressure on the twist of the ankle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeuhnyntl0w

Thanks Tank many of us appreciate the THQ and arre glad at the effort being made to reach out to the community. So for that I thank you

Animalz07
[/quote]

^ I agree with this. Some of the All-Stars sound effects blow away SVR's, especially the mat sound effects.