NXT Discussion Thread

[LEGION]

 

NXT doesn't really have many clean-cut babyfaces. Many characters walk that fine line and can be seen as heroes one day and bad guys the next. Like Bianca Belair around Wargames/Survivor Series. Or Dream, who never really turned face. He's just been getting cheers since losing to Aleister Black, regardless of his opponents.

 

what do you mean by clean cut? Ciampa is and was since returning. Gargano until sunday. Keith Lee, Matt Riddle, even Dunne for a while now. Dijakovic will probably be a clear babyface now.

 

Cruiserweight division has them, womens division has them, tag team is on the low thuogh... hence Riddle and Dunne now I think.

 

By clean cut I mean wrestlers that would shock the world by violently attacking their opponents. Before he attacked Aleister Black Johnny Gargano didn't seem like the kind of person that would use everything he could to become NXT champion. Like Kota Ibushi at Wrestlekingdom, when he started his barrage of closed fists attacks against Okada. Gargano attacking Black, Ibushi punching Okada, John Cena hitting Bray Wyatt with a chair...are the moments where clean-cut babyfaces shocked the world.

 

To me none of the people you listed would shock me if they did these things. They're obviously babyfaces, but they're also not "saints" and would totally use weapons or the championship belt to their advantage, if they felt like the situation called for it.

[AONO.]

Ah good, no need for them anyway.

[PaperThinWalls]

I remember y'all hating babyface family man Roddy tho. So which is it?

Not me. I liked those. lol

 

---

 

Majority of the babyfaces on NXT are pretty clearly defined. Perhaps not in a cartoonish, over-the-the-top way like RAW/SD tend to do at times (i.e. Ricochet, Gable, Balor in the past), but you know where they stand and you wouldn't expect them to take cheap shots or do anything scummy. But for Dream, the guy is unnecessarily bringing Strong's family in the mix and taking ugly, personal shots at his manhood. So the way he's been, it's getting me to side with Strong which strikes me as strange because the guy has been nothing but an obnoxious, cheating heel for some time now.

[Bushy.]

I remember y'all hating babyface family man Roddy tho. So which is it?

Whats that have to do with Dream being a dick head. My posts dont literally mean that Im rooting for Roddy, but Dream is definitely coming off as a bad guy. I cant blame fans that arent rooting for him in this scenario.

[Willows Way]

People cheer the shit out of Undisputed Era anyway so whatevs. Morals dont exist to most wrestling fans when it comes to heel/face actions tbh

[PaperThinWalls]

People cheer the shit out of Undisputed Era anyway so whatevs. Morals dont exist to most wrestling fans when it comes to heel/face actions tbh

Which is a shame because you get the situation we had last night with people chanting for Orton to brutalize Matt Hardy.

[St★rstrucꓘ]

Yeah, it can be irritating when good heels get cheered a lot more than the babyfaces they're working against - or even heels simply getting cheered by fans because it seems to be "cool" nowadays.

[LEGION]

NXT regulary manages to turn reactions around over the course of a match. Like when Oney Lorcan & Danny Burch had their TakeOver title match against the UE

[PaperThinWalls]

NXT regulary manages to turn reactions around over the course of a match. Like when Oney Lorcan & Danny Burch had their TakeOver title match against the UE

That was still bs. I still dont understand how a crowd could collectively shit on a team like Lorcan/Burch when they had been having fantastic matches leading up to that event.

[Generations]

I think it's fine because he's only doing it to get under his skin. If he was actually going to Strong's house and being a creep, it would be a different story...but, he knows that he can push those buttons easily...so, he's doing it. No line has been crossed yet that makes Dream a heel, IMO. It's like back when the Rock would mess with Cole or Coach. It wasn't a very nice thing to do...but it was done in jest. Calling someone a kissless virgin, or a "sick freak", or whatever other things the Rock said/did/implied about those two sounds pretty harsh...but, it was funny in the context. People need to allow wrestling to exist in the simple place that it should exist. Don't over-analyze everything just because you can. Strong is the heel because he tried to end Dream's career/kill him. And Dream is the face because he's taking that in stride and responding with comedy.

[St★rstrucꓘ]

 

NXT regulary manages to turn reactions around over the course of a match. Like when Oney Lorcan & Danny Burch had their TakeOver title match against the UE

That was still bs. I still dont understand how a crowd could collectively shit on a team like Lorcan/Burch when they had been having fantastic matches leading up to that event.

Probably because the crowd had no real reason to cheer and get behind Lorcan & Burch other than them standing up to UE and them being an underdog team.

[PaperThinWalls]

I think it's fine because he's only doing it to get under his skin. If he was actually going to Strong's house and being a creep, it would be a different story...but, he knows that he can push those buttons easily...so, he's doing it. No line has been crossed yet that makes Dream a heel, IMO. It's like back when the Rock would mess with Cole or Coach. It wasn't a very nice thing to do...but it was done in jest. Calling someone a kissless virgin, or a "sick freak", or whatever other things the Rock said/did/implied about those two sounds pretty harsh...but, it was funny in the context. People need to allow wrestling to exist in the simple place that it should exist. Don't over-analyze everything just because you can. Strong is the heel because he tried to end Dream's career/kill him. And Dream is the face because he's taking that in stride and responding with comedy.

Hows it over analyzing it? Hes playing mind games clearly but theyre scummy heel mind games. Bringing up a guys family is a no-no. Thats the line thats been crossed.

 

Cant say Im much of a fan of The Rock/John Cena-type babyfaces who would go too far with their insults and just completely bury their opponents (even if some of it was funny).

 

Probably because the crowd had no real reason to cheer and get behind Lorcan & Burch other than them standing up to UE and them being an underdog team.

Two tough, hard-hitting badasses who earned their chance to fight a cheating, smart-ass team like the UE isnt enough cheer for? Come on. The crowd just liked the cool heels and couldnt give a shit about a team they seemingly knew little of. And that wasnt the only match that displayed their obnoxiousness either.

[Generations]

 

Hows it over analyzing it? Hes playing mind games clearly but theyre scummy heel mind games. Bringing up a guys family is a no-no. Thats the line thats been crossed.

 

 

It's not "a line crossed" at all...because he has done nothing to Marina, or their boy. He's in the head of Roddy...that's it. And it also doesn't help your case that Marina is also a wrestler (and a heel).

 

You're grasping for something that isn't there.

 

Simply "bringing up" someone's family is not "crossing a line" if you're doing it solely because you know the reaction you'll get. He doesn't need to actually mean any of the things he's saying. He's doing it because he knows Roddy is quick to anger, and it's his best chance to get the reaction he wants. That's it.

[PaperThinWalls]

Well, we see differently then. To me its a line crossed even if its all talk and head games. Its a dick thing to provoke someone like that for a babyface. For a heel, game on. But for a babyface? It feels off to go low like that.

[Generations]

It's a moral quandary. That's as far as I'll give you.

 

It comes down to how Dream feels about "going low" as you said...but it's not a full heel move.

 

And you have to consider, too...that Dream has never really been a full-fledged "face"...he was a heel...then he was a tweener. It's his entire gimmick to do things that are considered questionable, or things that make people uncomfortable. One could easily argue that the Undertaker is not a face when he threatens to take people's souls, or literally bury them alive.

 

You're talking about a guy who goes out of his way to make people question where he's coming from...that's Dream.

[Lunchbox]

I mean Roddy tried to put the Dream on the shelf for good taking away what he cared about, wrestling, now the Dream is back so hes going after something he loved.

 

Ill defend Dream to the death cause he called Roddy shitty little boots.

 

Also face Roddy has always sucked. Heel Roddy is always the best.

[St★rstrucꓘ]

Heel Roddy still kinda sucks, too.

 

 

I think it's fine because he's only doing it to get under his skin. If he was actually going to Strong's house and being a creep, it would be a different story...but, he knows that he can push those buttons easily...so, he's doing it. No line has been crossed yet that makes Dream a heel, IMO. It's like back when the Rock would mess with Cole or Coach. It wasn't a very nice thing to do...but it was done in jest. Calling someone a kissless virgin, or a "sick freak", or whatever other things the Rock said/did/implied about those two sounds pretty harsh...but, it was funny in the context. People need to allow wrestling to exist in the simple place that it should exist. Don't over-analyze everything just because you can. Strong is the heel because he tried to end Dream's career/kill him. And Dream is the face because he's taking that in stride and responding with comedy.

Hows it over analyzing it? Hes playing mind games clearly but theyre scummy heel mind games. Bringing up a guys family is a no-no. Thats the line thats been crossed.

 

Cant say Im much of a fan of The Rock/John Cena-type babyfaces who would go too far with their insults and just completely bury their opponents (even if some of it was funny).

 

Probably because the crowd had no real reason to cheer and get behind Lorcan & Burch other than them standing up to UE and them being an underdog team.

Two tough, hard-hitting badasses who earned their chance to fight a cheating, smart-ass team like the UE isnt enough cheer for? Come on. The crowd just liked the cool heels and couldnt give a shit about a team they seemingly knew little of. And that wasnt the only match that displayed their obnoxiousness either.

Obviously the crowd likes the cool heels; that's something that should go without saying when it comes to NXT crowds for the most part. Like you said, the crowd couldn't give two shits about a team they didn't know much about aside from what you stated. Sure, they're two tough, hard-hitting badasses who had to grind to earn N1C against a team like UE... but that's literally it. I don't think there's anything about them would warrant a complete investment like that against a group that was so over like UE, because they surely lacked the personality. Granted, that was definitely not an excuse to practically boo Lorcan & Burch out of the building.

[Counting Lights]

Roddy just kinda sucks when he's not wrestling lol. Dude is honestly so much fun to watch and I'm glad he's around, but face or heel I can never bring myself to cheer for the guy. He just has that hateable aura about him. Bobby Roode tried to steal the mans wife and I still couldn't get on his side. So in that sense, yes, he's better as a heel because that's when I'm "supposed' to boo him.

[PaperThinWalls]

Obviously the crowd likes the cool heels; that's something that should go without saying when it comes to NXT crowds for the most part. Like you said, the crowd couldn't give two shits about a team they didn't know much about aside from what you stated. Sure, they're two tough, hard-hitting badasses who had to grind to earn N1C against a team like UE... but that's literally it. I don't think there's anything about them would warrant a complete investment like that against a group that was so over like UE, because they surely lacked the personality. Granted, that was definitely not an excuse to practically boo Lorcan & Burch out of the building.

Well, you seem to be making many excuses for them. lol

 

Roddy just kinda sucks when he's not wrestling lol. Dude is honestly so much fun to watch and I'm glad he's around, but face or heel I can never bring myself to cheer for the guy. He just has that hateable aura about him. Bobby Roode tried to steal the mans wife and I still couldn't get on his side. So in that sense, yes, he's better as a heel because that's when I'm "supposed' to boo him.

When delivering his promos he can lack some bass in his voice and come off stilted, but when the promo is right, I think he plays the whiny, dopey jock role quite well. In fact, I think Strong's performance is the unsung hero in this Dream program thus far. His reactions to all of Dream's hijinks have been superb and spot on.

[Bushy.]

NXT regulary manages to turn reactions around over the course of a match. Like when Oney Lorcan & Danny Burch had their TakeOver title match against the UE

When the crowd booed Burch & Lorcan I was pissed. It shouldnt take a good match to turn them around. We all know how good they are before the match started.

[Guest]

I have a theory that Takeover crowds don't watch NXT like that, just Takeovers and any big matches they hear about on NXT. Much like people do with PPVs on the main roster. Cause yeah, it was weird that Burch/Lorcan were killing it around that time just to be booed that night before winning the crowd over. Plus guys like Swerve and Garza getting no reaction at WarGames when they been killing it at NXT.

 

They definitely don't watch NXT UK, booing Dragonov like that at Worlds Collide.

[Bushy.]

I think it's fine because he's only doing it to get under his skin. If he was actually going to Strong's house and being a creep, it would be a different story...but, he knows that he can push those buttons easily...so, he's doing it. No line has been crossed yet that makes Dream a heel, IMO. It's like back when the Rock would mess with Cole or Coach. It wasn't a very nice thing to do...but it was done in jest. Calling someone a kissless virgin, or a "sick freak", or whatever other things the Rock said/did/implied about those two sounds pretty harsh...but, it was funny in the context. People need to allow wrestling to exist in the simple place that it should exist. Don't over-analyze everything just because you can. Strong is the heel because he tried to end Dream's career/kill him. And Dream is the face because he's taking that in stride and responding with comedy.

What a bad comparison. Comparing corny virgin jokes to personally involving your family. Wtf?

 

Its always been a thing in real life that insults to someone, they can take. But once family and kids are involved its personal. This isnt some over analysis. Its just logic. Not saying Strong is actually personally offended in real life, but from a storyline perspective I dont see how Dream CANT be the bad guy. Wether he injured him or not. A casual fan watching NXT for the first time is going to be confused.

[St★rstrucꓘ]

@PaperThinWalls: I'm not trying to make an excuse for the fans booing Burch & Lorcan. I straight up said that even though there was little to know about them, it was still no excuse to try booing them out of the building like that - and you could tell that they were doing that to be defiant towards Lorcan & Burch being presented as the "good guys". Yes, the fans not knowing much about them and the two having little to no personality is a valid reason to not really care for them or any given star in general, in my opinion (regardless of how good or bad their ring work is), but it definitely doesn't warrant the reaction they got. Had I not known any better, I would have thought they were the heels going into the match.

 

I also think that was the first and only time a babyface team got boo'd going up against UE. Teams like Mustache Mountain and Street Profits always got cheered pretty heavily - but they were also way more over with the crowd prior to the match as well.

[Counting Lights]

Being in the crowd that night, I was surprised that Burch/Lorcan got booed as heavy as they did, but then, they were also glorified jobbers who received build into a title match for all of like...a month? And with the UE being as over as they are, it wasn't THAT out of the way.

[PaperThinWalls]

@PaperThinWalls: I'm not trying to make an excuse for the fans booing Burch & Lorcan. I straight up said that even though there was little to know about them, it was still no excuse to try booing them out of the building like that - and you could tell that they were doing that to be defiant towards Lorcan & Burch being presented as the "good guys". Yes, the fans not knowing much about them and the two having little to no personality is a valid reason to not really care for them or any given star in general, in my opinion (regardless of how good or bad their ring work is), but it definitely doesn't warrant the reaction they got. Had I not known any better, I would have thought they were the heels going into the match.

 

I also think that was the first and only time a babyface team got boo'd going up against UE. Teams like Mustache Mountain and Street Profits always got cheered pretty heavily - but they were also way more over with the crowd prior to the match as well.

The bulk of your post came across as "Can you blame them?" sort of post using their lack of personalities (which I disagree with) and the UE's overness as a justification for the response. But this followup post clears things up better.