M3J Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 But if they do have mental sicknesses, then why are they able to buy guns legally? There are tons of people with mental illnesses that don't go around shooting things up or stabbing everything they see, and to keep bringing up mental issues during mass shootings just further stigmatizes the whole thing. While I'm not saying mental illness isn't a reason, the fact still stands that guns are still the issue, or at least people being able to buy guns easily, and blaming mental illness is a cop-out or an escape. Also, if forced to choose between the two, I'd rather see a stabbing spree because it means more people are likely to survive, and there'd likely be far fewer victims because the stabber would have to get up close. With guns, all the shooter needs is ammo, he doesn't have to get up close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT. Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 But if they do have mental sicknesses, then why are they able to buy guns legally? There are tons of people with mental illnesses that don't go around shooting things up or stabbing everything they see, and to keep bringing up mental issues during mass shootings just further stigmatizes the whole thing. While I'm not saying mental illness isn't a reason, the fact still stands that guns are still the issue, or at least people being able to buy guns easily, and blaming mental illness is a cop-out or an escape. Also, if forced to choose between the two, I'd rather see a stabbing spree because it means more people are likely to survive, and there'd likely be far fewer victims because the stabber would have to get up close. With guns, all the shooter needs is ammo, he doesn't have to get up close. Mental illness is not a cop-out, it is the real problem at the end of the day and it's the problem that's not being looked into. The current way we treat mental health patients is that we give them bottles full of pills and send them on their way. Often times without any real instruction on how to even take the medication properly. Guns on the other hand, are not as easy as the media likes to make it sound with should be a standard 10-day waiting period, and an extensive background check. That's not to say that there are not any gun stores in America that are breaking the law and just phoning it in, or outright just selling a firearm on the spot. If you were to say that we need to make sure the current and standard process needs to be doubled-down on and enforced better, I'd agree. However, America does not have a gun problem as percentage of legal gun owners that went through due process committing gun crimes is extremely low. A knife wielder could just as easily go on a 30+ killing spree whether that be with calculated silent killings, or a mob of knife wielding maniacs like in China. People are going to find and think of effective ways to kill each other with what is presented to them. Edit: I do recommend reading, Behold the Pale Horse. Really good book, this is an excerpt from it. Do not trust the ruling class that claim guns can't protect when they themselves are protected by guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedmaniac Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 The middle class isn't begging to do away with the second amendment, they just want military grade firearms out of the hands of common citizens. Nobody really cares about shotguns or hunting rifles or handguns, at least not enough to want them completely dissappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT. Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 That is more of a moderate left argument, but the extreme alt-left want guns and white people gone all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generations Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 That is more of a moderate left argument, but the extreme alt-left want guns and white people gone all together. Bullshit, tbh... I've literally heard no one say this...ever. Maybe in the darkest corners of some extremist hole...but never in a regular conversation. And that is obviously what the focus is on...(regular conversation). Why even bother mentioning what the most extreme argument is? It hardly matters. Address the bulk of the conversation...which is merely limiting the variety of firearms... And...really? "Want white people gone"? You are the most insecure person I have probably ever encountered. I hope you're trolling at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3J Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Sad thing is, there actually are people who believe that white people are victims and have it the hardest. It's usually white supremacists who think like that, again bringing up the "alt-left" all the time and ignoring alt-right's bullshit. And while there are few people who want guns banned, which makes sense, especially given the low level of gun violence in other countries, there are tons more, myself included, who want to see stricter regulations as well as AR-15 banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generations Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Like I said...that has to be the most insecure thinking I've ever encountered. How insecure do you even need to be to think that white people are essentially a threatened race? That would be a decent bit of comedy if it wasn't so genuinely worrisome. If you do actually think that, seek professional help...you definitely have an inferiority complex, and are projecting your insecurities on the world around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3J Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Again, it's white supremacy in action. Usually stems from being threatened by minorities wanting or fighting for equality, from what I've observed. Bring up white privilege, and I bet you he'll deny it exists. Cruz is white, and most headlines are painting him as a troubled boy with a bad past or something or influenced and trained by a white supremacist group. I forgot the specifics. however, if he was black, he'd be called an adult or a terrorist if Muslim. Many have even pointed out how Cruz and Dylann Roof were taken alive despite what they did but black people are killed for something like reaching for their ID or selling loose cigarettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT. Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 He's not painting him as a troubled boy, he is a deeply troubled and emotionally disconnected boy who fought with his peers and tortured small animals. Your typical story when mental health is the main issue where guns are used as scapegoats instead of searching for real solutions and SJW's claiming "white supremacy" against anyone that thinks otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedmaniac Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 How do you approach the issue of mental illness though, and more importantly, who exactly fits into the profile of a mentally ill person. If you wanna say it is someone who makes violent threats to hurt others and constantly says outlandish and derogatory statements then pretty much all white supremacists would fall into that category and would qualify to be locked up in some mental institution. However, since they are protected by this little thing called freedom of speech they or anybody else can pretty much just say or insinuate some vile shit and as long as they don't actually commit it or have any history of being violent then they can just waltz on freely and buy as many guns and ammunition as the laws of this country allow them to. We wouldn't want to infringe on anybodies rights now would we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT. Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 How do you approach the issue of mental illness though, and more importantly, who exactly fits into the profile of a mentally ill person. If you wanna say it is someone who makes violent threats to hurt others and constantly says outlandish and derogatory statements then pretty much all white supremacists would fall into that category and would qualify to be locked up in some mental institution. However, since they are protected by this little thing called freedom of speech they or anybody else can pretty much just say or insinuate some vile shit and as long as they don't actually commit it or have any history of being violent then they can just waltz on freely and buy as many guns and ammunition as the laws of this country allow them to. We wouldn't want to infringe on anybodies rights now would we? At the end of the day, regardless of what's being said someone getting their feelings hurt isn't a crime. It sucks, but it's not a crime to get your feelings hurt because no one's feelings matter. As for how we approach mental illness, we have to hold big pharma accountable for their actions of slinging drugs like they're dealers. We reform the approach to medial health in general in the United States, we do away with Obamacare which has been a huge detriment to the United States deficit. There's a lot of people that need to be thrown in prison for collusion and profiting in blood money. However, they can wait as we need to spend money on public services for anyone that needs mental help that won't just give them a bottle full of experimental pills tell them, "good luck." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedmaniac Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 So I guess all that money for "the wall" and Trumps fancy military parade could be better spent on people with mental illness and the homeless then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generations Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Everything you say is a huge contradiction... Now you're randomly going off on Obamacare...which literally allowed people access to healthcare specialists who might help them through mental illness. It isn't "experimental pills" as you've questionably stated...I mean, Obamacare was seriously just access to healthcare. That includes all areas of healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT. Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Everything you say is a huge contradiction... Now you're randomly going off on Obamacare...which literally allowed people access to healthcare specialists who might help them through mental illness. It isn't "experimental pills" as you've questionably stated...I mean, Obamacare was seriously just access to healthcare. That includes all areas of healthcare. Obamacare was written mostly by lawyers that represent big pharma and outside economists have all agreed it hasn't helped anyone and has cost a lot in wasted taxpayer dollars. So I guess all that money for "the wall" and Trumps fancy military parade could be better spent on people with mental illness and the homeless then? I never said I support Trump, I'm an anti-establishment independent if I had to use a label. However, I do agree that the boarders need to be secured better and the money wasted on Obamacare could have went to a healthcare bill that gave real results and put less money in the pockets of everyone Obama was in bed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generations Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Obamacare was written mostly by lawyers that represent big pharma and outside economists have all agreed it hasn't helped anyone and has cost a lot in wasted taxpayer dollars. Rubbish, rubbish, and more rubbish. "Hasn't helped anyone"? How do you even begin to be naive enough to say something like that? It absolutely afforded millions of people the opportunity to access health coverage that they never had before. And "wasted tax dollars" is highly debatable. That all depends on how much you personally value health coverage, and whether you feel that all US citizens should have access to it. Obamacare was only a "waste of tax dollars" to people who think that healthcare is a privilege that should be paid for on a person-to-person basis. That said, the point of discussion was never on Obamacare as a whole, or what its shortcomings may have been. The discussion was about whether Obamacare helped people access mental healthcare specialists. And it absolutely did. Whether you were disgruntled by the tax management or not...that doesn't change anything regarding what the coverage provided. Facts are facts. More people could visit a doctor and get evaluated with ease. Some people had to pay more for health coverage than they paid prior to Obamacare...but tons of people who had no coverage got access to it for the first time ever. Those numbers are what counts...not your personal grievances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3J Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 I'm telling you, ignore him. You're just wasting your time trying to argue with him. I think mental illness thing is an easy enough thing to solve. Do what Japan does, or something similar, for anyone who wants to buy guns. Give them tests and check out their history. If neither pass, no guns for them. Stringent vetting would cut down mass shooting/gun violence drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernez Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 You don't have to ignore him. I came to verbally warn a new member we don't allow the following statement: I hate to insult you, but I haven't seen this much autism in one post before. I'm gonna sum things up here pretty much but of course, he's a banned member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3J Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Figured. Thought he was bdon, actually, back when I actually took him seriously. Who was he? Glad I stopped reading his posts yesterday or few days ago though. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/connecting-mental-illness-gun-violence-misses-point-experts-say-n821696?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nWo_Kevin Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Mike Rowe posted some interesting thoughts on this whole situation. In regards to the shooting, and also Good/Evil conversation we were having on the other thread. Thought it was worth posting: Like most of you, I’m overwhelmed with pity for the victims and their families, but consumed with anger for the coward who chose to murder. Rage and sorrow are hard things to reconcile, and the more such things occur, the more apparent it becomes that there is nothing new to say. So forgive me Susan, if I repeat what I said after Vegas and San Bernardino. Evil is real. As long as humans have walked the earth, people have chosen to do evil things. This is what happened in Florida. A nineteen-year old man chose to do an evil thing. He planned it. He executed it. He succeeded. Should we endeavor to know why? Absolutely. Should we discuss the impact of video games, accessible firearms, single-parents, no parents, powerful medications, social media, mental illness, bullying, or anything else we think might have encouraged him to choose evil over good? Without question. But we should also stop confusing the influence of such things, with the root cause. Because nothing in this man’s past can possibly explain his decision to kill seventeen people. If you believe otherwise, ask yourself why millions of other people with a similar past, don't make similar choices The past does not equal the future. This is the most comforting thing I can tell you, Susan. It's also the most disconcerting. Because the facts are undeniable. People from horrible backgrounds often become the epitome of kindness. And people with every imaginable advantage, often go on to squander everything. The past does not equal the future. To the families of the victims I can only offer my sincerest condolences, along with my heartfelt wish that the man who killed their loved ones is removed from the planet with all due speed. As for words, I can only repeat what others have said, and ask you to remember those who confronted evil with courage. People like Aaron Feis, the football coach who threw himself in front of the kids the killer was trying to murder. Beyond that, I'm afraid I can offer nothing but my weekly attempt to prove that goodness also walks among us, just as surely as evil. In numbers far greater than our newsfeeds would lead us to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango kid Posted February 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Yeah people have to accept people. Can. Do,horrible stuff doesnt mean he mentally ill just evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generations Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Yeah people have to accept people. Can. Do,horrible stuff doesnt mean he mentally ill just evil Wrong statement is wrong. Was wrong before. Still wrong. Especially the bit about "people need to accept". I don't need to accept horrible behavior. I can vilify it, and I can call it like it is. I can say that someone is not right in the head...because they do something horrible. I think people have entirely too narrow of a concept regarding what "mental health" is. And we've had this discussion in the past. Mental health is not merely a discussion of whether you have dementia, depression, schizophrenia, etc. That is a very black and white way of thinking about mental health. Mental health is much more than that. Any person who wakes up and thinks "I'd like to shoot some people who I don't even know, today" is absolutely mentally ill. Period. I think people get caught up on this hangup that calling someone mentally ill gives them an excuse for their behavior. It doesn't. Mental illness is an excuse for certain behaviors depending on what that illness is. But to lump all mental illness together and act like it's always an excuse, or that it's a "cop-out" is where people go wrong. Fact is, science is not 100% accurate. We can diagnose different types of mental illness...and then we have other forms of mental illness that just go undetected. You don't need a diagnosable form of illness to be considered ill. You might pass all traditional tests, but if you go out and kill a bunch of people for no reason, no mental healthcare practitioner is about to say "oh...he was mentally okay". No, they would say "clearly we missed that one". Now...there are brief psychotic breaks. A jaded lover might stab someone to death or do something in the heat of a moment. And again...that would be a break. That person wouldn't be mentally ill...but you could argue that they lost control. When it comes to someone premeditating a massacre, though...that is not a break, that is an unstable mind. No words can convince me that behavior like that is on level with a keen mind. That's a definite sign that something has gone awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedmaniac Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Apparently a kid at an Ohio school just shot himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bdon Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Figured. Thought he was bdon, actually, back when I actually took him seriously. Who was he? Glad I stopped reading his posts yesterday or few days ago though. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/connecting-mental-illness-gun-violence-misses-point-experts-say-n821696?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma Wait. How would you think that was me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEGION Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Figured. Thought he was bdon, actually, back when I actually took him seriously. Who was he? Glad I stopped reading his posts yesterday or few days ago though. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/connecting-mental-illness-gun-violence-misses-point-experts-say-n821696?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma Wait. How would you think that was me? Come on. The signs were obvious. High-tech equipment, never in the same place, the only billionaire with access to that stuff and on top of that you use your alias as your avatar on a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ! Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Trump actually calling for a ban on bump stocks. Im kinda shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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