The Religion Debate Thread

[Doc Holliday]

The concept of a religious experience is not an impossibility. The inherent problem with them, is that the person cannot properly explain what happened to them. So to everyone else, he is crazy, but it could be that some one actually had an experience of some kind. So saying you had an experience wouldn't work out so well, even if it was true.

[EDGEHEAD15]

The concept of a religious experience is not an impossibility. The inherent problem with them, is that the person cannot properly explain what happened to them. So to everyone else, he is crazy, but it could be that some one actually had an experience of some kind. So saying you had an experience wouldn't work out so well, even if it was true.

Good point. The main problem I have with the concepts of religious or supernatural experience is that the situation the person's stating has to happen to at least one person in the world. Take for instance, The Guardian prints a story of some kind of solar flare that occurred the night before, and a reader sends a letter to the newspaper, telling them about how he/she had a dream the night before that the whole world was engulfed in flames erupting from the sun. They might have seen it as a premonition and after reading the story in the paper, sent a reply, as they found it an extremely unusual thing to happen.

 

But let's explore the happening further: first, we have to look at how many daily readers of the Guardian there are. Let's say they're in the tens of thousands at least. There are also, let's hypothesise, 50 stories printed in the newspaper daily. That means that someone may have had at least one dream or experience that alluded to the 50 stories. The only difference is, that the rare occasion lets the two statistics cross, meaning that it ends up being one of those tens of thousands that has an experience about one of those 50 stories. It might have happened the night before, week before or even months before. It happened, and thus, it seems unusual. But what about a dream that person had the night before that, about their partner dying in a car crash? It hasn't occurred yet (and it may never do), so the person thinks nothing of it, because it has no true significance to their life.

 

The same can be said for personal experiences about God. A person prays for their grandmother to be cured of a disease and she never is, so they think nothing of the prayer. However, when they pray for their grandfather to be cured of a disease and he is, they may assume it's because of this one or several moments of prayer, because it is - in that case - suddenly significant.

[Sacrilegium]

You're alright, Edgehead. But I keep wanting to call you Egghead. Just because.

And I shall call you Squishy, and you shall be mine, and you shall be my squishy!

I have the perfect build to be named Squishy. It's a deal!

[Whiterhyno333]

I have proof that God exists, but I don't think you're allowed to post nudes on here.

 

 

Damn, I thank God I'm not in the same room with you when you post dumb shit like that. It would be too tempting...

 

Fact is, I've said it before in every other religion thread, you just can't "prove" God. He isn't some math problem where 2+2= God.

 

The question thats been asked is.... "Why do you believe in God?"

 

Thats not really the question though... Its really: "Prove to ME how GOD exsists."

[Mustacio]

I actually genuinely want to know why. I even elaborated my train of thought on it. Whether or not he's real is beside the point, I'm interested in why you think he is.

[Whiterhyno333]

Now I know I've explained that to you at least three or four times since we started this discussion when I first joined, Mustacio.

 

You know I came to be a Christian much later in life and I used to use the same arguments you did to tear down the mere thought of religion. I'm not a Biblical genius by any means, but I'd say I spend a fair amount of time trying to figure it out. I'll even admit that it isn't always easy. Christianity isn't as cut and dried as some people make it out to be, but it does boil down to three basic principles.

 

1. Put God first in your life. Accept Christ was his son and died to cleanse the world of sin.

2. Love others as you would yourself.

3. Forgive others of the wrongs done against you.

 

I can see where number 1 chaps people's ass because you really can't prove God or the son of God, but are the other two really that bad.

 

If we want to apply logic (and I know you see religious people as the most irrational and delusional people on Earth to some of you), if I'm wrong and God doesn't exsist what have I really lost and who have I really hurt? If I am right, however, what have I gained? I'm really in a no lose situation. I'm happy and satisfied being a Christian. I don't feel cheated and don't think I'm really harming anyone. As a matter of fact, my faith dictates that I help people and be more more understanding. Who is that really hurting and why should I have to justify it?

[Mustacio]

You didn't really answer my question, though. I know when you came into religion, but I don't know the how and the why. I really want to know why.

 

I feel people need to justify it because it's irrational. What's stopping you from doing point 2 and 3, sans religion? I do those, but I'll get smited anyway on the count of point 1? That's the thing, it boils down to point 1. It's all about point 1. Worship the lord, or you will be damned. THAT'S boiling it down.

 

"my faith dicatates that I help people and be more understanding". My brain dictates that for me by itself, and I'm certain yours did as well before you were religious.

 

Religion is unecessary, I feel. That's why I want to know why you belive these quite frankly, ridiculous stories as being truth. You have to know these things aren't possible, you need to know these things to even function, I feel. It does my head in, I can toss examples a plenty but it never seems to hammer home (not with you, with anyone).

 

It's a goblin, a wizard, a unicorn.. You know these things aren't real, because there's no reason to, there's no proof.. They're all imaginary creatures from fiction. There's no proof. There's a book about Wizards, called Harry Potter. There's a book about God, called the bible. Why will you readily dismiss one thing as fiction, but consider the other as the absolute truth, when they have exactly the same origin, and amount of "evidence"?

[Whiterhyno333]

The thing is the whole story about how I "came to God". Is a long-winded emotional account that really reveals a ton about my personal life that I'd just as soon keep private. Not that I'm ashamed of it, but at the same time there are a ton of personal details that I just can't share with people that aren't outside my close personal circle. (I know that sounds WAY more mysterious than it needs to be, but I think anyone can understand that a choice like becoming a Christian isn't something that someone like me would make flippantly. A lot of thought went into it.)

 

Without going into details... I'd say I've always been a very likeable person. College athlete, fraternity member, writer for a paper, school teacher, bartender, waiter, etc... these were all jobs/roles that required me to be personable and get people to like me. I wouldn't say I was a prick, but, if I'm being honest, I was inherently selfish. I was nice to people because it made me feel good and opened the possability that people would return my kind behavior in turn. Wouldn't say I banked on it, but I wouldn't say I was always good to people that weren't good to me. I'd say I was a little vindictive in a lot of cases where I felt people wronged me.

 

Becoming a Christian was a very slow procecess that involved me coming to terms with my faults and finding the realization that I wasn't as good a person as I wanted to be or thought I was. I had a few people that I really tested when it came to their faith and why they believed what they did. After a while, I just saw they were at peace with who they were and I really wasn't... Then shit happened (won't go into detail) that really caused me to look into Christianity and what it was really about. Not the judgemental bullshit that people constantly bring up to tear it down, but the core of the faith. It appealed to me and I gradually started reading about it. the more I read, the more I studied it,...the more it seemed like the right choice for me.

 

I think it helps that I came to that choice on my own. My parents didn't push me into it. I didn't do it to appease my wife. My friends didn't pressure me into it. It was something I iniated on my own.

[EDGEHEAD15]

If we want to apply logic (and I know you see religious people as the most irrational and delusional people on Earth to some of you), if I'm wrong and God doesn't exsist what have I really lost and who have I really hurt? If I am right, however, what have I gained? I'm really in a no lose situation.

 

Actually, no. Let's say for a second that we know your Judeo-Christian God (if that is the God you believe in) doesn't exist, yet you have praised him and followed his teachings. What if there was another form of higher power that does actually exist, and is pretty annoyed that you're following something else other than it, that doesn't exist? What if Zeus was real and as retribution for being Christian, he punished you greatly in the afterlife? Truth is, the religious are 99% atheist, since they disbelieve in every other God except their own (saying that Atheism is the 'lack of' belief in a deity).

[Sam The Dude]

I have proof that God exists, but I don't think you're allowed to post nudes on here.

 

 

Damn, I thank God I'm not in the same room with you when you post dumb shit like that. It would be too tempting...

 

 

I wish Spyder was still here to cue up Alice Cooper's "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

[Mustacio]

One objection!

 

"Not the judgemental bullshit that people constantly bring up to tear it down, but the core of the faith."

 

You cannot fault me or others for pointing out the book is bonkers at times. Remember, that judgemental bullshit is just as much in that book and just as much a teaching of god as the ones that make up "the core of the faith". This is an extremely important point, I feel.

 

Even if the core of the faith was "be nice" (I still belive it to be "worship me", if I'm terribly wrong then let me know), then my question of "Why not just.. be nice.. without religion" is still valid.

[Whiterhyno333]

In that case, I'm royally *censored*ed and Zeus will chain me to a stone and have a vulture rip out my liver for all eternity.

It would suck and I'd be totally wrong. Whats a guy going to do? I'm happy where I am and what I'm doing... If I need another reason to live life the way I want to... Well, why would I?

 

One objection!

 

"Not the judgemental bullshit that people constantly bring up to tear it down, but the core of the faith."

 

You cannot fault me or others for pointing out the book is bonkers at times. Remember, that judgemental bullshit is just as much in that book and just as much a teaching of god as the ones that make up "the core of the faith". This is an extremely important point, I feel.

 

Even if the core of the faith was "be nice" (I still belive it to be "worship me", if I'm terribly wrong then let me know), then my question of "Why not just.. be nice.. without religion" is still valid.

 

I don't fault you... I don't think I ever have.

 

That book, however, isn't as bonkers as you make it out to be. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be taken in context. (And I know your next argument is going to be "Why wouldn't a perfect being make it more clear?". I have no idea. I'll ask him when I get to heaven.)

 

You can be nice without religion... you can also be a complete prick and there are really no repurcussions either way. I mean, if there is no after life you can do damn near anything and not have to worry about it. Why not be a selfish ass and get as much as you can without worrying about anyone else? In the end, its all about you anyway.

[Mustacio]

In that case, I'm royally *censored*ed and Zeus will chain me to a stone and have a vulture rip out my liver for all eternity.

It would suck and I'd be totally wrong. Whats a guy going to do? I'm happy where I am and what I'm doing... If I need another reason to live life the way I want to... Well, why would I?

 

One objection!

 

"Not the judgemental bullshit that people constantly bring up to tear it down, but the core of the faith."

 

You cannot fault me or others for pointing out the book is bonkers at times. Remember, that judgemental bullshit is just as much in that book and just as much a teaching of god as the ones that make up "the core of the faith". This is an extremely important point, I feel.

 

Even if the core of the faith was "be nice" (I still belive it to be "worship me", if I'm terribly wrong then let me know), then my question of "Why not just.. be nice.. without religion" is still valid.

 

I don't fault you... I don't think I ever have.

 

That book, however, isn't as bonkers as you make it out to be. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be taken in context. (And I know your next argument is going to be "Why wouldn't a perfect being make it more clear?". I have no idea. I'll ask him when I get to heaven.)

 

You can be nice without religion... you can also be a complete prick and there are really no repurcussions either way. I mean, if there is no after life you can do damn near anything and not have to worry about it. Why not be a selfish ass and get as much as you can without worrying about anyone else? In the end, its all about you anyway.

 

Again I feel it's picky choosy, when it's "two men shall not lay together like a man and a woman" (or whatever it is), people call it open for interpretation, wouldn't want the bible to seem dickish, would we? But when it's "love thy neighbor" (or any positive thing) It's just "IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE IN THE BIBLE! This book is AWESOME!"

 

And yeah, I can be a complete prick, but I'm not.. Which is exactly my point, even faced with the fact that there's no afterlife, no heaven to go to if I'm good, no hell to go to if I'm bad. I still choose to be a good person. There's no need for the dangling carrot, or the threat of a belt to the butt.

[kreay fufu]

I would have thought that most people who believe in God (excluding those who believe because they've been raised in that way) do so because of something deeply personal, which is hard to share with others. I know mine is.

 

I wouldn't tell that because it's based around something that haunts me even now, and i'd never want to bring up or relive that if I can help it. It actually led to a total breakdown in front of a lot of my friends, and long story short I wouldn't have gotten through it without a belief in God. It's hard to explain it, because I don't want to bring the context up.

[Whiterhyno333]

Mustacio, I think its noble that you are good to people. We should be good to one another. My job, as a Christian, isn't to judge you or anyone else.

 

Christ says over and over gain that loving and forgiving your neighbor, not judging them, is what we are supposed to do. I stick with that....It really quite simple.

 

I hate quoting the Bible here on CAWs. It feels preachy, but.....

 

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

 

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

 

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

 

There are more, but its all very simple. I believe in the teachings of Christ. He tells me to love God and love others. I don't need much more to go on... The Bible has a ton of stories, but when Christ tells me that "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Then its pretty simple what I need to do.

[EDGEHEAD15]

In my opinion, if you need to be told by a book to be morally good to someone, and not choose to do so by your own judgement, then you're not actually doing it out of the kindness of your heart.

[Mustacio]

You're a good man, I really do mean that.

 

It's the "fulfilled the law" part that bugs me. And you're also well aware that I could quote the bible, where it wouldn't shine such a noble light on what it says.

 

My major concern is that I feel the idea of somone having a plan, controlling things and saying what's cool and what's not. That limits us as humans, it doesn't encourage questioning, logic or exploration. If you believe the rules to be cut and dry, you just live by them not questioning whether it's actually valid, or even morally just.

 

You believe your God gave you this big beautiful brain, and free will, but the book he "wrote" doesn't encourage using it; deviate from the rules and you're a sinner. He gave you tools to be a free man, to do what you want with your life, but if you don't do things the way he wants you've crossed the line, and you get a bum deal.

 

 

On a side note: Wouldn't it be funny if God meant neighbour.. Like.. it says in the book.. Like, just the people who live on your street. It slightly amuses me that you quoted so many parts, ending with how obvious it was what he wanted you to do, but still think of the actual word "neighbour" as "everyone".

 

Eddie Izzard put it better when he said "Always treat your neighbour like someone who lives near to you".

[Whiterhyno333]

But I think that "law" is love.

 

Its basically Christ saying... "Love people and you won't murder them. If you love someone, you won't hurt them. You won't steal from them. You won't *censored* them over, etc."

 

If you really take "loving" people seriously, you won't commit sin.

 

The gay issue is a great example... I love my sons. Period... If both of them told me they were gay when they get older, I'd be disappointed in a way, but I wouldn't love them any less. Does the Bible tell me to hate them? I'm sure someone will use Soddam and Gamora to tell me that is the way to go, but what did Christ tell me to do?

 

I worship God and believe that Christ is a manifistation of him... He directly told me to LOVE folks; not judge them. Not hate them... Not make them feel like shit...... LOVE, LOVE, LOVE.

 

I know folks get that all twisted, but I really think they aren't getting the message. Why don't I believe in the death penalty? Because its damn hard to love and forgive someone and kill them at the same time. No where in the Bible does Christ say "Love everyone, but these guys...."

 

Now if you ask me why I'm a Soldier and go to war.... man, I'm still conflicted about that. I'm not perfect. I just do the best I can to do what my beliefs tell me.

[Rockstar™]

In my opinion, if you need to be told by a book to be morally good to someone, and not choose to do so by your own judgement, then you're not actually doing it out of the kindness of your heart.

Sig/quote worthy

 

Living your life by anything external is detrimental imo to the internal consciousness. In other words, the body will revolt.

[Nevermore.]

A question that I like is: why is faith considered a good thing?

 

I can't see how believing in something without any evidence is considered good, and not plain stupid.

[Maefteda]

I'm not going to take so much part of this topic, because quite frankly, Mustacio is saying exactly what I'm thinking, while wording it better too. Looks like a good topic though, as the conversation between Whiterhyno and Mustacio has been very interesting and well thought-out.

 

I respect Whiterhynos position, and if religion helped you turn your life around, all power too you. I still don't believe in absolute truths though, and as Mustacio said, all the good things about religion, can very well be done without it. The problem I have with religion is all the bad stuff it also brings. People who are all too certain and don't even want to discuss their problems are the worst kind. So having a book like The Bible, which is basically telling people what is right and wrong, just doesn't do it for me. Especially when a lot of the "wrong" stuff are highly debatable.

 

But my main beef with religion is the fact that you need to believe in God to go to heaven. Everybody are going to sin, because quite frankly, it's impossible not to. But there are a lot of people who are generally good people, and the fact that they may end up tortured in hell isn't something I want to believe. So even if I did convert to christianity, my father would still go to hell, so I can't possibly see how I could have a "perfect" time in heaven. I've heard some religious people say "you'll have a bigger understaning, so your father won't matter" to that argument, and that is a horrible thing to say. I'd rather believe in the things I know and love than take a wild guess on an absolute truth that has no evidence to back it up.

 

I want to ask another question though, to my religious friends out there. How do you think you would change as a person if you suddenly lost your faith? I know it's a lot to ask, and its difficult to know. But I am just interested in finding out if your faith really changes your personality.

[kreay fufu]

In my opinion, if you need to be told by a book to be morally good to someone, and not choose to do so by your own judgement, then you're not actually doing it out of the kindness of your heart.

The book isn't what's telling you to be good, at least not in that sense, and it's not what motivates good behaviour by those who follow it. It guides the person by showing examples of how people can and should behave to one-another. The kindness comes from the heart. It's not some sort of simple minded, blind following of a text as your trying to paint it.

[Whiterhyno333]

In my opinion, if you need to be told by a book to be morally good to someone, and not choose to do so by your own judgement, then you're not actually doing it out of the kindness of your heart.

 

You worry about the "motivations" of why someone is doing good... I'll appreciate the bottom line. Good is good. If someone needs guidlines or rules to enact that behavior, so be it.

 

I'm not one to try and peer into someones heart and explain why their actions are compromised by their motivations.

[EDGEHEAD15]

In my opinion, if you need to be told by a book to be morally good to someone, and not choose to do so by your own judgement, then you're not actually doing it out of the kindness of your heart.

 

You worry about the "motivations" of why someone is doing good... I'll appreciate the bottom line. Good is good. If someone needs guidlines or rules to enact that behavior, so be it.

 

I'm not one to try and peer into someones heart and explain why their actions are compromised by their motivations.

But that doesn't mean that they're being good because they want to be good for others, regardless of status, but rather being good because they want to do it for themselves or a being of higher power/status. It's like giving to charity, just because a law is passed that everyone must give at least £/$1 to a random donation, rather than doing it because you feel that it is necessary.

 

True to what you're saying though; in the end, you're still doing something positive, which is better than doing nothing at all.

[HellHammer]

I cleaned up the last part of this topic. We don't need to see stuff like that here, if you don't like another members post that you compells you to go off topic against them, just ignore it. Also if you don't like what's going on in this topic because the current round of questions are boring, don't bother posting because if you do decide to post something sly, try hard, or just overall spam worthy that we feel could derail the topic, we will delete, edit, and even warn if necessary.